Replacement battery cost

Hi,

I've got a deal pending on a 2014 Spark EV, but the (GM) dealer can't or won't provide a price for a replacement battery - which is something I'd like to know. I'm hoping it's around the same $5500 cost that it is for the Leaf, but so far; no dealer has been able to find a price for me. Has anyone looked into this?

Thanks!

oilerlord said:

Hi,

I've got a deal pending on a 2014 Spark EV, but the (GM) dealer can't or won't provide a price for a replacement battery - which is something I'd like to know. I'm hoping it's around the same $5500 cost that it is for the Leaf, but so far; no dealer has been able to find a price for me. Has anyone looked into this?

Thanks!

Click to expand...

Considering the warranty is likely still in effect on almost every Spark EV battery ever shipped, it's easy to understand why price info is not readily available.

I assume you mean the high voltage traction battery, not the generic 12V battery. Unless the vehicle has a reclaimed from salvage title I'd expect the entire drive train to be under warranty.

What reason do you have for thinking it needs a battery?

The battery is warrantied for 8 years/160,000km, so if it is found to be defective at some point, it should be covered by GM. Secondly, the replacement costs of these things usually fall with time as the parts gets cheaper, alternatives such as rebuilt batteries come to market (as has happened with the Prius for example). So even if they quote $6000 today, by the time you actually need one, the cost is likely to go down significantly. I wouldn't let that number hold you back.

oilerlord said:

....but the (GM) dealer can't or won't provide a price for a replacement battery - which is something I'd like to know....

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Sorry, set a calendar date for 2022. Then you might need to know the answer to that question. I suspect you won't.
GM uses a great battery Thermal Management System.

Note: The Leaf has nada for a TMS, thus the stories of 'Battery Degradation'.
And Li-Ion batteries do a fade, not suddenly die.
Even if the Spark EV has 15% battery degradation, in 8 years, it would still be an awesome EV !

Don't get me wrong. I love my Spark EVs and want to drive them until the wheels fall off. However, this thread caused me to consider the following question:
8-10 years down the road, will a replacement battery be available or will it have to be custom-made to order? 2016 is the last year for the Spark EV and, at the end of 2015 Chevy had only sold 4313 Spark EVs in the US since being introduced in 2013. January sales were 139; up from 86 in January 2015. I understand this same vehicle is also sold in other countries too. Thoughts / comments?

I know that (traction) battery replacement will be a long way off, and that GM offers a long warranty for it. I didn't read the fine print on the warranty, but I'd assume that the warranty doesn't cover degradation over time - which is perfectly reasonable, and along the lines of how Nissan and Tesla handle their warranties. I just find it odd that the dealer can't find or quote a price for one. The battery should have a GM part number.

If I'd like to know the price of the battery, I'm sure that down the road a prospective buyer may want to know that information too as it's also reasonable to assume that the car's range could be at 40 miles or less at some point. Sure, the battery "should" be cheaper as time passes by but I think the bigger question is will it even be available? If you think about it, GM will surely be making 60-80kWh batteries and may even have developed a standard battery that fits several platforms. At that point, a Spark EV battery will be an oddball, and may not be as cheap to produce as we think.

oilerlord said:

I know that (traction) battery replacement will be a long way off, and that GM offers a long warranty for it. I didn't read the fine print on the warranty, but I'd assume that the warranty doesn't cover degradation over time - which is perfectly reasonable, and along the lines of how Nissan and Tesla handle their warranties. I just find it odd that the dealer can't find or quote a price for one. The battery should have a GM part number.

If I'd like to know the price of the battery, I'm sure that down the road a prospective buyer may want to know that information too as it's also reasonable to assume that the car's range could be at 40 miles or less at some point. Sure, the battery "should" be cheaper as time passes by but I think the bigger question is will it even be available? If you think about it, GM will surely be making 60-80kWh batteries and may even have developed a standard battery that fits several platforms. At that point, a Spark EV battery will be an oddball, and may not be as cheap to produce as we think.

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That is basically my concern too. GM will have to have some Spark EV battery packs in stock to cover warranty issues until the traction battery warranty period for the 2016 Spark EV expires (2024-2025?). The traction battery pack is designed to fit in a particular space with very specific dimensions and anchor points that may not be applicable to other EVs. That means the Spark EV traction battery is unique to the Spark EV unless it is used for another vehicle and the uniqueness is a concern. This may also be true for all other EV models from other manufacturers unless some standardization happens. Perhaps, by the 2025, vehicle-specific battery packs will be available from a third party who also uses used battery packs for solar storage. I guess it is also possible to rebuild the current battery pack by just replacing all of the individual battery modules that make up the traction battery. Who knows?

Battery is a concern, and no one seems to know the battery price. If SparkEV gets out of warranty by abuse before 8 years is up, and the battery happens to die (short circuit abuse?), that will be a problem. 8 years down the road, pricing may be different, but at least we should have some idea of it now.

Compounding the problem is that 2014 SparkEV uses A123's 21.3kWh battery while 2015/2016 uses LG's 18.4kWh (deeper cycling). I think Volt also uses LG batteries and seems similar. I don't know if they can be used in 2015/2016 SparkEV, if not the module, then rebuild using their cells.

But what do you do about 2014 SparkEV? Even more of a problem is that there are about half the number of 2014 SparkEV as 2015/2016. If 2014 comes in for warranty service on dead A123 battery, what happens? I hope GM will make adapters to "upgrade" 2014 to later batteries as A123 no longer makes EV batteries.

SparkevBlogspot said:

Battery is a concern, and no one seems to know the battery price. If SparkEV gets out of warranty by abuse before 8 years is up, and the battery happens to die (short circuit abuse?), that will be a problem. 8 years down the road, pricing may be different, but at least we should have some idea of it now.

Compounding the problem is that 2014 SparkEV uses A123's 21.3kWh battery while 2015/2016 uses LG's 18.4kWh (deeper cycling). I think Volt also uses LG batteries and seems similar. I don't know if they can be used in 2015/2016 SparkEV, if not the module, then rebuild using their cells.

But what do you do about 2014 SparkEV? Even more of a problem is that there are about half the number of 2014 SparkEV as 2015/2016. If 2014 comes in for warranty service on dead A123 battery, what happens? I hope GM will make adapters to "upgrade" 2014 to later batteries as A123 no longer makes EV batteries.

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Those are my some of my concerns too since I have both a 2014 (A123 battery) and 2015 Spark EV (LG battery). I own the 2014 and leased the 2015. So, when the lease is up for the 2015, I will have to make some difficult decisions regarding whether to buy the car from GM - my current plan - or turn it back in. I really do not want to turn the 2015 back in as I really like the vehicle and it has been absolutely trouble-free as is my 2014. I haven't seen anything on this blog regarding a battery failure / replacement in a Spark EV so I have to believe the GM engineers designed the battery to last much longer than 8 years although, at this point in time, it may be too soon to get a good feel for battery life. The question is how long and at what cost to replace it if it CAN be replaced. I think GM really needs to address this question. New BOLT owners are going to have the same concerns too.

This thread made me curious to find out about our battery warranty. Yes, it says 8 years or 100,000 miles, "see dealer for limited warranty details".

I'm wondering if anyone has actually seen those details?

SparkevBlogspot said:

..... If SparkEV gets out of warranty by abuse before 8 years is up, and the battery happens to die (short circuit abuse?), that will be a problem. ....

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Say What?
How exactly would one 'Abuse' a Spark EV battery?

I can only think of one scenario of 'abuse':
Take your Spark EV to Tucson, charge it to 100%, unplug it and let it sit out in the sun all summer long. (People in Phoenix walk around like they're half dead. People in Tucson walk around like they are dead.)
Li-Ion batteries don't like that. Tesla, in this scenario, will use TMS to keep the battery at decent temp range until the battery is depleted to ~80%, just to avoid this abuse. (I have read)

And then, how would Chevy point to 'abusive use' to null the warranty?

I still lurk on the Volt forums. I haven't seen anything about battery degradation in 2011 Volts (Dec 2010).

You guys should worry about space rocks instead...

NORTON said:

I still lurk on the Volt forums. I haven't seen anything about battery degradation in 2011 Volts (Dec 2010).

You guys should worry about space rocks instead...

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I wouldn't call this a "worry", only a reasonable request to find out:

1.) How much does a replacement battery cost?
2.) Will these batteries be available even if/when the Spark EV is discontinued?

To be fair, comparing a Volt's battery with a Spark EV's battery is kind of an apples vs oranges comparison. The Volt battery has a very large buffer...out of a 17kWh battery, only about 11kWh is usable. This is very different from a 2014 Spark EV where 18kWh out of 21kWh is cycled on a regular basis. This is the reason we're seeing very high mileage 2011 Volts on the road with minimal battery degradation. We don't have long term battery data on Spark EV's yet.

Please understand that I believe the Spark EV is one of the best electric vehicles on the road, and an unbelievable value - especially on the used market. It's a fantastic car. That said, I've accepted that the Spark EV is a "compliance car", and as such, have valid questions about GM's plans to support and/or offer battery replacements down the road. The fact that the dealer that wants to sell me the car can't come up with at least one answer to the above questions, IS a red flag; at least for me.

NORTON said:

And then, how would Chevy point to 'abusive use' to null the warranty?

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The dealer could deny warranty claims for all sorts of reasons. One might be to add a trailer hitch, even if it's just to have bicycle carrier, and not actually used to tow. Yes, one could "fight" this, but the point is that there are many ways to deny warranty coverage.

I don't know if neglect would be such category, but imagine if someone ran out of battery, had it towed home, got so fed up that he just let it sit there for months, further draining the battery via self discharge and killing many cells in the process. Then he decide to start it up again only to find that it no longer works. Would Chevy honor such warranty claim? I don't know, but it would be abusive. By the way, it seems many young people behave this way, "young" being under 50 years old. ;-)

Yet another might be someone using the battery like Tesla's "power-wall" to store daytime solar to power at night by directly tapping into the battery. It's a great idea, but I think it would also constitute as abuse as it will cut battery life, especially if not done right; there is no "right" way as of now. Old people seem to want to experiment like this, "old" being 80 years old or some lunatics not quite so old thinking about doing that. ;-)

NORTON said:

I haven't seen anything about battery degradation in 2011 Volts

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Volt uses much smaller fraction of battery capacity, I think 60% or something, while 2014 SparkEV uses over 90%, and 2015 seem to use close to 100%. If Volt battery range degrades, they won't know until 60%, or the degradation is much less noticed. Having said that, I think only post I saw here was about someone claiming 17kWh with 2014 model after ~2 years, though it's unknown how he arrived at that. I use TonyWilliams + digital trends data to estimate 2014 battery capacity when new. I use my experimental data to estimate 2015 battery capacity. I explain how I did this in my blog.

http://sparkev.blogspot.com/2016/01/sparkev-range.html

How many batteries will fail within warranty is unknown, with the caveat that "fail" is 0 miles range. Also unclear is how many miles range is sufficient to claim warranty coverage? Is it 70% like Leaf, or 0% as in completely dead? This might need a separate thread.

SparkevBlogspot said:

Volt uses much smaller fraction of battery capacity, I think 60% or something, while 2014 SparkEV uses over 90%, and 2015 seem to use close to 100%. If Volt battery range degrades, they won't know until 60%, or the degradation is much less noticed. Having said that, I think only post I saw here was about someone claiming 17kWh with 2014 model after ~2 years, though it's unknown how he arrived at that. I use TonyWilliams + digital trends data to estimate 2014 battery capacity when new. I use my experimental data to estimate 2015 battery capacity. I explain how I did this in my blog.

http://sparkev.blogspot.com/2016/01/sparkev-range.html

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I read your blog. Thanks for the brain candy. Pretty much all I need to know (and more) about how much range to expect from a Spark EV in one page. To sum up your findings...drive between 20 and 40 MPH (when possible) for maximum efficiency.

I do find it interesting that, even after an hour or so of using the nearly omnipotent Google machine, no pricing can be found for a replacement Spark EV battery. Not to "spark" a conspiracy theory...but is that because GM never really intended to supply them? Crazy theory? Perhaps, but as most people lease EV's anyway, few customers really care about battery longevity since they only have the car for three years. GM no doubt ran the numbers and may have figured that the ZEV credits from this compliance car were worth the losses incurred from the sale of each Spark EV, along with the possible backlash from the relatively few owners that actually would like to replace the battery at some point - but won't be able to.

To Norton's point, perhaps I'm overthinking this. The correct course of action may indeed be pulling that trigger on a used 2014 Spark EV on the cheap, drive the car in 8 years of electric-only bliss, and after that, assume the car has zero resale value; and throw it away like a used & obsolete cell phone.

oilerlord said:

SparkevBlogspot said:

Volt uses much smaller fraction of battery capacity, I think 60% or something, while 2014 SparkEV uses over 90%, and 2015 seem to use close to 100%. If Volt battery range degrades, they won't know until 60%, or the degradation is much less noticed. Having said that, I think only post I saw here was about someone claiming 17kWh with 2014 model after ~2 years, though it's unknown how he arrived at that. I use TonyWilliams + digital trends data to estimate 2014 battery capacity when new. I use my experimental data to estimate 2015 battery capacity. I explain how I did this in my blog.

http://sparkev.blogspot.com/2016/01/sparkev-range.html

Click to expand...

I read your blog. Thanks for the brain candy. Pretty much all I need to know (and more) about how much range to expect from a Spark EV in one page. To sum up your findings...drive between 20 and 40 MPH (when possible) for maximum efficiency.

I do find it interesting that, even after an hour or so of using the nearly omnipotent Google machine, no pricing can be found for a replacement Spark EV battery. Not to "spark" a conspiracy theory...but is that because GM never really intended to supply them? Crazy theory? Perhaps, but as most people lease EV's anyway, few customers really care about battery longevity since they only have the car for three years. GM no doubt ran the numbers and may have figured that the ZEV credits from this compliance car were worth the losses incurred from the sale of each Spark EV, along with the possible backlash from the relatively few owners that actually would like to replace the battery at some point - but won't be able to.

To Norton's point, perhaps I'm overthinking this. The correct course of action may indeed be pulling that trigger on a used 2014 Spark EV on the cheap, drive the car in 8 years of electric-only bliss, and after that, assume the car has zero resale value; and throw it away like a used & obsolete cell phone.

Click to expand...

Wouldn't this be true for almost all EVs with possibly the exception of Tesla and Nissan? I have to think some smart businessman will see the potential to provide rebuilt batteries to the after-warranty EV market and start a lucrative battery RR business.

SparkevBlogspot said:

NORTON said:

And then, how would Chevy point to 'abusive use' to null the warranty?

Click to expand...

>The dealer could deny warranty claims for all sorts of reasons. One might be to add a trailer hitch, ...
>> if someone ran out of battery, had it towed home, ... let it sit there for months, further draining the battery via self discharge ...
>>>Yet another might be .... by directly tapping into the battery. ...

NORTON said:

I haven't seen anything about battery degradation in 2011 Volts

Click to expand...

Volt uses much smaller fraction of battery capacity, I think 60% or something, while 2014 SparkEV uses over 90%, ...
>>>>I explain how I did this in my blog.
http://sparkev.blogspot.com/2016/01/sparkev-range.html
>>>> ... Is it 70% like Leaf, or 0% as in completely dead? ...

Click to expand...

> Don't do that. Use a strap-on bike rack.
>> Li-Ion batteries do not have a 'self discharge'. Look it up.
>>> "directly tapping" !?! Don't do that.
>>>>Yes, you always do...
>>>>>GM will not say a battery is OK at 50% degradation if Nissan is saying 70% is their limit.

Next?

Or we could wait for 2022 to continue this discussion....

MrDRMorgan said:

Wouldn't this be true for almost all EVs with possibly the exception of Tesla and Nissan? I have to think some smart businessman will see the potential to provide rebuilt batteries to the after-warranty EV market and start a lucrative battery RR business.

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I've thought about that too, but a new 600 pound battery pack won't come cheap, and then you have the proprietary battery management software / electronics that manufacturers either won't share or license to said battery repair / rebuild shop. I considered picking up a cheap Leaf with a highly degraded battery thinking that I could simply buy a battery from a salvage yard - and swap it out in my garage. Nope. Nissan told me that their software won't allow this, and Nissan dealers wouldn't install / program a customer-supplied battery for you even if you paid them to.

MrDRMorgan said:

oilerlord said:

...drive the car in 8 years of electric-only bliss, and after that, assume the car has zero resale value; and throw it away like a used & obsolete cell phone.

Click to expand...

Wouldn't this be true for almost all EVs with possibly the exception of Tesla and Nissan? I have to think some smart businessman will see the potential to provide rebuilt batteries to the after-warranty EV market and start a lucrative battery RR business.

Click to expand...

Isn't there a law about supporting a product for at least 10 years for the auto industry?

I'm voting for the GM model to be the best EV battery system.
Tesla uses +7000 small cylindrical stainless steel can, 18650 size laptop cells, but at least liquid cools them.
Nissan said, "Ta'hell with TMS".

oilerlord said:

how much range to expect from a Spark EV in one page.

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I'm going to try and put it into one plot in more meaningful way. Data is lacking, so it'll be more guesses, but the new methodology can be used for all EV in the future, and hopefully useful even for EV other than SparkEV. Coming soon.

oilerlord said:

assume the car has zero resale value; and throw it away like a used & obsolete cell phone.

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Something to keep in mind is that SparkEV is the very first EV from GM. Yes, there was EV1, but that was never available to buy. Volt is a hybrid, and plenty of them around (over 100K of them). Leaf may be first, but tons of them around, too, not to mention s-l-o-w. Tesla is nice, but also many.

In contrast, SparkEV is about 3000 in the world, quickest EV in its class, quickest charging than any EV, and on and on. It may or may not be worth much more in the future. It seems to have many qualities of collector's car if GM decide to discontinue it (almost a certainty at this point).

NORTON said:

Don't do that.

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The point I'm making is that there are many ways to "abuse" and get it out of warranty. Then if the battery needs replacing, how much will it cost? So far, no definite answer. I'm hoping someone will find out sooner than 2022 so we can decide if we want to keep the car or return after lease.

If they come back with $10,000 ($500/kWh), I don't know if I can afford to keep it, especially if I have 2014 model since A123 is no longer available and the price isn't likely to go down. I suppose GM could make conversion for LG battery, but that's another question: would they do that for old car (2014), or would they simply want you to buy a new car, counting on high battery price to discourage "repair" of old EV?

With 2015, it may be possible to use Volt cells to rebuild the pack, but that's for another thread.