6.6 KW charger in the Spark EV?

[Pegasus]

Whatever guys, I agree with Kenn: our opinions of one QC type over another are irrelevent unless we are car manufacturers ourselves! QC aside, I'm just drooling over the 10kW charging people have hacked into their Leaf and wondering how many 3.3kW Brusas we can fit in the Spark EV to get close to that! That'll be QC enough for me, thanks!

 

[kenn]

Hi Pegasus,

QC will minimize the range anxiety felt by many an also allow longer trips for those with time constraints, but do hope whatever is chosen expands rapidly.

Know that we are somewhat positively biased toward the Spark EV, but I can't help but feel that the sales figures shown by Tony will be thought as almost hilariously low in a very few years.

My skills are limited, but it sure would be nice to cut in half or more the L2 charging time for the Sparkie.

Pegasus
Post subject: Re: 6.6 KW charger in the Spark EV?
Unread postPosted: Mon Nov 04, 2013 3:50 pm
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Joined: Fri Jul 12, 2013 12:59 am
Posts: 33
Whatever guys, I agree with Kenn: our opinions of one QC type over another are irrelevent unless we are car manufacturers ourselves! QC aside, I'm just drooling over the 10kW charging people have hacked into their Leaf and wondering how many 3.3kW Brusas we can fit in the Spark EV to get close to that! That'll be QC enough for me, thanks!


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[cwerdna]

Does anyone else find it strange that most who do not like the SAE combo call it a 'Frankenplug'. Everyone is acting like they are a bunch of spoiled brats if their preferred standard is not accepted. It is somewhat irrelevant what each of us think since we are not a major players in the EV industry. Lets just get a standard fast charger and make adapters for the non standard. A DC volt is DC volt and AC is AC even tho it may be a little different in frequency. Our common part (EV's) outweighs any operational part. kenn

Frequency? AC by definition has a frequency, typically 50 or 60 hz and no + nor -. DC is direct current. There should be NO frequency.

There's unfortunately a lot more of a difference between J1772 CCS (for which there seem to be two different connectors for the AC part: one that looks like J1772 L1 and L2 AC, the other that looks like Mennekes) vs. CHAdeMO than just the connectors. I believe J1772 CCS uses GreenPHY PLC while CHAdeMO uses CAN (Controller Area Network).

I don't know all the details and frankly, I care very little about Frankenplug's technical details. If you want to slog thru the details, there are some nuggets of info from the Frankenplug fanboy that you'll easily spot over in these threads:
http://www.teslamotorsclub.com/showthread.php/16401-CHAdeMO-adapter-frustration-%28adapter-coming-winter-2013%29
http://www.teslamotorsclub.com/showthread.php/12357-SAE-vs-CHAdeMO
http://www.teslamotorsclub.com/showthread.php/7107-Likelihood-of-a-CHAdeMO-adapter-for-the-Model-S
http://www.mynissanleaf.com/viewtopic.php?f=26&t=9092 - not much to slog thru here

You should really ask yourself the motivations of the Frankenplug players. MNLers for ages have been saying their only purpose was to attempt to slow down Nissan by creating FUD and consumer confusion. Perfect example of this was with http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/DIVX vs. DVD. When DIVX finally died, DVDs took off. It's likely there were a decent % of people confused and buying neither until things "sorted themselves out".

GM threw punches at http://www.torquenews.com/1075/gm-and-nissan-trade-punches-over-electric-car-fast-charging.

Balch went on to describe the current situation as a "hodgepodge of fast charging standards" with Tesla having its own proprietary level 3 system, Nissan and Mitsubishi using CHADEMO. He noted that last week, at EVS26, an alliance of 8 automakers (including GM) announced support for a the "combo plug" designed by the SAE DC Fast Charging committee. He described this as "a new standard," one "that is going to come, probably before the end of this year," meaning the SAE committee is expected to approve the standard this summer, charging stations are expected to become available late in the year, and cars to become available in 2013.

The bombshell then landed when Balch said "we need to make sure, especially because we're talking about taxpayer money, that ONLY those standards are installed going forward." Meaning that because the SAE DC Fast Charge standard is the only "standardized" fast charging system, this is the system to endorse. Balch was actually boooo'd at this point, but he went on to remind us of the past history, that we know its a bad move to have competing charging connector standards. Finally, he said "there is a very small group of cars that use a non-standardized level 3 charging connector," referring to the Nissan Leaf and Mitsubishi i-MiEV and the upcoming Tesla Model S.

So, 1 year and ~4.5 months after that, nobody is shipping ANY Frankenplug cars in the US and that "very small group of cars" is past 110K units and Tesla is somewhere past 14K units (IIRC). TSLA announces earnings tomorrow, so we'll get to see if guesses were right.

It's not to say that CHAdeMO is perfect. The connector is huge and the early Yazaki handles are not user-friendly nor very intuitive. They still seem to be in wide use, including on Nissan's QCs.

At this point, the path of least resistance if new BEVs/PHEVs want to take advantage of current and growing DC FC infrastructure is to either adopt CHAdeMO or pay Tesla to license their Supercharger standard and gain access to their stations. But, the players I've mentioned could've done the former awhile ago...

 

[kenn]

Hi cwerdna,

The very essence of AC is the fact that it changes polarity in a sinusoidal form at its frequency. Everything is relative, but the transfer of power appears to be superior at the 50-60 cycle range. Much higher frequency generally deals with communications(kilo,meg,gig, & etc. cycles).

Not exactly sure what one of your references meant when he refereed to the taxpayer dollar in reference to standards reached in DC charging protocol. Think it was in reference to the government bailout of GM. Do not intend to go there due to so many back door deals and the lack of openness.

Selection of a standard DC charging method is beyond our ability. Pick one and build adapters for the rest and get on with our common element: EVs. Confusion will ultimate cause disaster and there will be another documentary on 'Who killed the EV:2nd edition'.
_________________________________________________________________________________________ cwerdna
Post subject: Re: 6.6 KW charger in the Spark EV?
Unread postPosted: Mon Nov 04, 2013 9:56 pm
Offline

Joined: Sun Nov 03, 2013 12:35 am
Posts: 8
Location: SF Bay Area, CA
kenn wrote:
Does anyone else find it strange that most who do not like the SAE combo call it a 'Frankenplug'. Everyone is acting like they are a bunch of spoiled brats if their preferred standard is not accepted. It is somewhat irrelevant what each of us think since we are not a major players in the EV industry. Lets just get a standard fast charger and make adapters for the non standard. A DC volt is DC volt and AC is AC even tho it may be a little different in frequency. Our common part (EV's) outweighs any operational part. kenn

Frequency? AC by definition has a frequency, typically 50 or 60 hz and no + nor -. DC is direct current. There should be NO frequency.

There's unfortunately a lot more of a difference between J1772 CCS (for which there seem to be two different connectors for the AC part: one that looks like J1772 L1 and L2 AC, the other that looks like Mennekes) vs. CHAdeMO than just the connectors. I believe J1772 CCS uses GreenPHY PLC while CHAdeMO uses CAN (Controller Area Network).

I don't know all the details and frankly, I care very little about Frankenplug's technical details. If you want to slog thru the details, there are some nuggets of info from the Frankenplug fanboy that you'll easily spot over in these threads:
http://www.teslamotorsclub.com/showthre ... er-2013%29
http://www.teslamotorsclub.com/showthre ... vs-CHAdeMO
http://www.teslamotorsclub.com/showthre ... he-Model-S
http://www.mynissanleaf.com/viewtopic.php?f=26&t=9092 - not much to slog thru here

You should really ask yourself the motivations of the Frankenplug players. MNLers for ages have been saying their only purpose was to attempt to slow down Nissan by creating FUD and consumer confusion. Perfect example of this was with http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/DIVX vs. DVD. When DIVX finally died, DVDs took off. It's likely there were a decent % of people confused and buying neither until things "sorted themselves out".

GM threw punches at http://www.torquenews.com/1075/gm-and-n ... t-charging.
Quote:
Balch went on to describe the current situation as a "hodgepodge of fast charging standards" with Tesla having its own proprietary level 3 system, Nissan and Mitsubishi using CHADEMO. He noted that last week, at EVS26, an alliance of 8 automakers (including GM) announced support for a the "combo plug" designed by the SAE DC Fast Charging committee. He described this as "a new standard," one "that is going to come, probably before the end of this year," meaning the SAE committee is expected to approve the standard this summer, charging stations are expected to become available late in the year, and cars to become available in 2013.

The bombshell then landed when Balch said "we need to make sure, especially because we're talking about taxpayer money, that ONLY those standards are installed going forward." Meaning that because the SAE DC Fast Charge standard is the only "standardized" fast charging system, this is the system to endorse. Balch was actually boooo'd at this point, but he went on to remind us of the past history, that we know its a bad move to have competing charging connector standards. Finally, he said "there is a very small group of cars that use a non-standardized level 3 charging connector," referring to the Nissan Leaf and Mitsubishi i-MiEV and the upcoming Tesla Model S.

So, 1 year and ~4.5 months after that, nobody is shipping ANY Frankenplug cars in the US and that "very small group of cars" is past 110K units and Tesla is somewhere past 14K units (IIRC). TSLA announces earnings tomorrow, so we'll get to see if guesses were right.

It's not to say that CHAdeMO is perfect. The connector is huge and the early Yazaki handles are not user-friendly nor very intuitive. They still seem to be in wide use, including on Nissan's QCs.

At this point, the path of least resistance if new BEVs/PHEVs want to take advantage of current and growing DC FC infrastructure is to either adopt CHAdeMO or pay Tesla to license their Supercharger standard and gain access to their stations. But, the players I've mentioned could've done the former awhile ago...


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[cwerdna]

Not exactly sure what one of your references meant when he refereed to the taxpayer dollar in reference to standards reached in DC charging protocol. Think it was in reference to the government bailout of GM. Do not intend to go there due to so many back door deals and the lack of openness.

I believe it was in reference to California taxpayer money, not the GM bailout.

Selection of a standard DC charging method is beyond our ability.

No it is not. You can choose EVs by what DC FC charging standard(s) they support and the ubiquity of the network(s) where the vehicle will reside.

Again, look at the Frankenplug roll call and ask yourself, which of them have serious EV programs? Make some projections about their EV sales in the US (e.g. by looking at Leaf sales as % of Nissan sales in the US and applying that to their current US sales, looking at their current BEV sales, looking at their announcements of upcoming DC FC-capable BEVs/PHEVs). Which of them will to do what it takes to ensure that network is ubiquitous (e.g. paying for DC FC hardware and installation, making it cost effective to do so, etc.)

Care to throw out some numbers in annual US sales and by what year for each of the players at http://www.mynissanleaf.com/viewtopic.php?p=272070#p272070? We can then compare to annual sales and installed base of Leafs and Model S.

Look at what Nissan and Tesla have done. Will any of them be willing to spend that type of $ and why?

 

[kenn]

Hi cwerdna,

Each of us has their own thoughts on HVDC charging format but really do not have enough 'clout' to accomplish the format they think is superior. Even LOGIC does not apply. Like previously stated, select one and go forward with it and make adapters for the others.................... We must not let some particular aspect derail the total EV movement.




_______________________________________________________________________________________
cwerdna
Post subject: Re: 6.6 KW charger in the Spark EV?
Unread postPosted: Wed Nov 06, 2013 12:56 am
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Joined: Sun Nov 03, 2013 12:35 am
Posts: 12
Location: SF Bay Area, CA
kenn wrote:
Not exactly sure what one of your references meant when he refereed to the taxpayer dollar in reference to standards reached in DC charging protocol. Think it was in reference to the government bailout of GM. Do not intend to go there due to so many back door deals and the lack of openness.

I believe it was in reference to California taxpayer money, not the GM bailout.
kenn wrote:
Selection of a standard DC charging method is beyond our ability.

No it is not. You can choose EVs by what DC FC charging standard(s) they support and the ubiquity of the network(s) where the vehicle will reside.

Again, look at the Frankenplug roll call and ask yourself, which of them have serious EV programs? Make some projections about their EV sales in the US (e.g. by looking at Leaf sales as % of Nissan sales in the US and applying that to their current US sales, looking at their current BEV sales, looking at their announcements of upcoming DC FC-capable BEVs/PHEVs). Which of them will to do what it takes to ensure that network is ubiquitous (e.g. paying for DC FC hardware and installation, making it cost effective to do so, etc.)

Care to throw out some numbers in annual US sales and by what year for each of the players at http://www.mynissanleaf.com/viewtopic.p ... 70#p272070? We can then compare to annual sales and installed base of Leafs and Model S.

Look at what Nissan and Tesla have done. Will any of them be willing to spend that type of $ and why?


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[cwerdna]

Hi cwerdna,

Each of us has their own thoughts on HVDC charging format but really do not have enough 'clout' to accomplish the format they think is superior. Even LOGIC does not apply. Like previously stated, select one and go forward with it and make adapters for the others.................... We must not let some particular aspect derail the total EV movement.

Then, you should be demanding that Chevy and/or Frankenplug supporters create CHAdeMO to J1772 CCS adapters or that they license Tesla's Supercharger standard and create adapters for that. There are numerous other things they could try to push for and get mandated or encourage. But, w/such a tiny # of non-Frankenplug vehicles sold by Chevy and lack of serious EV programs from the Frankenplug players (let alone shipping any vehicles w/DC FC) other than BMW, that sure raises doubts about their "clout".

If I had a Chevy Spark EV w/the mythical extra pins for CCS, I sure wouldn't hold my breath for ubiquity of DC FCs in that format nor an adapter. You may as well consider the port useless (just like the CHAdeMO port on the '11 Leafs at the beginning) and if it becomes useful, that's a bonus.

It's still very odd that you copy and paste old posts and include other stuff along w/it ("e.g. Report this post"). You do understand how the quote tags work, right?

 

[TonyWilliams]

The unofficial output: CHAdeMo:50 KW, SAE combo: 80 KW, Supercharger:120 KW
Think these outputs can be modified with a little 'tinkering'.

Why are made up numbers ("unofficial") important, or desired?

1) The OFFICIAL CHAdeMO output is 62.5kW, which is 500 volts multiplied by 125 amps. The design specification is 100kW, which is 500 volts multiplied by 200 amps. http://www.CHAdeMO.com

2) Tesla Supercharger is 120kW in the USA (400 volts times 300 amps). In Europe, they have announced 135kW.

3) Frankenplug is 200–450 V DC and 80 A (36 kW) for DC Level 1 and up to 200 A (90 kW) for DC Level 2:

http://www.sae.org/smartgrid/chargingspeeds.pdf

 

[cwerdna]

QC aside, I'm just drooling over the 10kW charging people have hacked into their Leaf

Model S and Rav4 EV come w/a 10 kW OBC.

Model S can be equipped w/a 2nd 10 kW OBC but you need to attach to a http://shop.teslamotors.com/products/high-power-wall-connector to take advantage.

Unfortunately, most public and home EVSEs tend to be 30 amps @ 240 volts at max, so the above won't be able to pull 10 kW.

At my work, I sometimes see Model S charging on our Chargepoint L2 EVSEs. I see them pulling 6.0 to 6.2 kW, IIRC. I confirmed w/Chargepoint techs who were onsite doing some work that our line voltage is 208 volts. My '13 Leaf SV pulls ~5.8 to 5.9 kW on those EVSEs.

On the note of Tesla's Superchargers, as I posted at http://www.myrav4ev.com/forum/viewtopic.php?p=5386#p5386:

I just stumbled across http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Kc1BVbrhmJw. I haven't watched the entire video. 255 amps @ 360 volts as mentioned in the video at ~4:40 is crazy! Adding 273 miles per hour (at ~5:40) of charge is insane!

Compare that to rates at http://www.myrav4ev.com/forum/viewtopic.php?p=3517#p3517.

 

[kenn]

TonyWilliams
Post subject: Re: 6.6 KW charger in the Spark EV?
Unread postPosted: Wed Nov 06, 2013 11:02 pm
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Joined: Sun Apr 14, 2013 4:23 pm
Posts: 80
kenn wrote:
The unofficial output: CHAdeMo:50 KW, SAE combo: 80 KW, Supercharger:120 KW
Think these outputs can be modified with a little 'tinkering'.


Why are made up numbers ("unofficial") important, or desired?
Tony: You may have unlimited time to verify everything you read but that is seriously doubted. By stating 'unofficial', meant the numbers given were read were obtain from an unofficial web site; not made up as you stated. If you will read the official site you cited you will find the rating given apply to a majority of the CHAdeMO chargers
1) The OFFICIAL CHAdeMO output is 62.5kW, which is 500 volts multiplied by 125 amps. The design specification is 100kW, which is 500 volts multiplied by 200 amps. http://www.CHAdeMO.com

2) Tesla Supercharger is 120kW in the USA (400 volts times 300 amps). In Europe, they have announced 135kW.

3) Frankenplug is 200–450 V DC and 80 A (36 kW) for DC Level 1 and up to 200 A (90 kW) for DC Level 2:
Tony: Please note that Levels 1 & 2 deal with AC voltage; not DC voltage. Level 3 deals with DC voltage. The SAE Combo charger allows all three levels to be combined in the same plug.
http://www.sae.org/smartgrid/chargingspeeds.pdf

Hello cwerdna & Pegasus,
Debating and arguing will gain us nothing. Improvement in small steps like in your reference may be the most effective way to accomplish an overall improvement. Range anxiety is a definite barrier to the acceptance of EVs and it will probably not be solved by any one improvement but by many small ones and a lot of time.
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cwerdna
Post subject: Re: 6.6 KW charger in the Spark EV?
Unread postPosted: Thu Nov 07, 2013 12:00 am
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Joined: Sun Nov 03, 2013 12:35 am
Posts: 15
Location: SF Bay Area, CA
Pegasus wrote:
QC aside, I'm just drooling over the 10kW charging people have hacked into their Leaf

Model S and Rav4 EV come w/a 10 kW OBC.

Model S can be equipped w/a 2nd 10 kW OBC but you need to attach to a http://shop.teslamotors.com/products/hi ... -connector to take advantage.

Unfortunately, most public and home EVSEs tend to be 30 amps @ 240 volts at max, so the above won't be able to pull 10 kW.

At my work, I sometimes see Model S charging on our Chargepoint L2 EVSEs. I see them pulling 6.0 to 6.2 kW, IIRC. I confirmed w/Chargepoint techs who were onsite doing some work that our line voltage is 208 volts. My '13 Leaf SV pulls ~5.8 to 5.9 kW on those EVSEs.

On the note of Tesla's Superchargers, as I posted at http://www.myrav4ev.com/forum/viewtopic ... 5386#p5386:
Quote:
I just stumbled across http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Kc1BVbrhmJw. I haven't watched the entire video. 255 amps @ 360 volts as mentioned in the video at ~4:40 is crazy! Adding 273 miles per hour (at ~5:40) of charge is insane!
If the mind can imanage something, have no doubt that it can be done. Just look at the progress in the last fifty years.
Compare that to rates at http://www.myrav4ev.com/forum/viewtopic ... 3517#p3517.

 

[TonyWilliams]

Tony: You may have unlimited time to verify everything you read but that is seriously doubted. By stating 'unofficial', meant the numbers given were read were obtain from an unofficial web site; not made up as you stated. If you will read the official site you cited you will find the rating given apply to a majority of the CHAdeMO chargers
1) The OFFICIAL CHAdeMO output is 62.5kW, which is 500 volts multiplied by 125 amps. The design specification is 100kW, which is 500 volts multiplied by 200 amps. http://www.CHAdeMO.com

2) Tesla Supercharger is 120kW in the USA (400 volts times 300 amps). In Europe, they have announced 135kW.

3) Frankenplug is 200–450 V DC and 80 A (36 kW) for DC Level 1 and up to 200 A (90 kW) for DC Level 2:
Tony: Please note that Levels 1 & 2 deal with AC voltage; not DC voltage. Level 3 deals with DC voltage. The SAE Combo charger allows all three levels to be combined in the same plug.
http://www.sae.org/smartgrid/chargingspeeds.pdf

Honestly, it's tough enough just to read your posts, and even tougher to decipher what you want to say. I will say that you're factually flawed. The data I posted is easy to verify, even with links to make it easy for you.

No, "Levels 1 & 2" do not only mean AC voltage. There actually aren't any "Level 3" DC chargers planned, as the Frankenplug is SAE Level 2 DC. Thankfully, I doubt you'll confuse many folks, because they won't be able to read your posts.

Please take the time to learn how to actually make a coherent, legible post.

 

[kenn]

Hi Tony,
Sorry that you are having problems understanding my post. Will attempt to make them a little clearer. Do not have the time to go back and verify all the data received. Guess I tend to trust most data which is viewed, especially if it appears to be in the bounds of reason. Look at the site you referenced: http://www.CHAdeMO.com
Look at optimal output power under the 'TECHNOLOGY' heading. In the second paragraph, please make note of the most appropriate power level of 50KW. Do not believe that is a factual flaw.

In the beginning guidelines which are essentially the standards of today: With an on board rectifier, L1 was 120 VAC, L2 was 240 VAC and L3 was HVDC with no rectifier that went directly to the batteries. There are couple of SAE Combo chargers operational presently and have heard there are many more in the pipeline.

Grab on to your seat because there will be a wild ride over the next few years. The Magazine, CURRENTEVENTS, has a great deal of information. One general has to question some of the information due to the fact that some of the authors are not technical writers.

_________________________________________________________________________________________
TonyWilliams
Post subject: Re: 6.6 KW charger in the Spark EV?
Unread postPosted: Thu Nov 07, 2013 12:28 pm
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Joined: Sun Apr 14, 2013 4:23 pm
Posts: 81
kenn wrote:
Tony: You may have unlimited time to verify everything you read but that is seriously doubted. By stating 'unofficial', meant the numbers given were read were obtain from an unofficial web site; not made up as you stated. If you will read the official site you cited you will find the rating given apply to a majority of the CHAdeMO chargers
1) The OFFICIAL CHAdeMO output is 62.5kW, which is 500 volts multiplied by 125 amps. The design specification is 100kW, which is 500 volts multiplied by 200 amps. http://www.CHAdeMO.com

2) Tesla Supercharger is 120kW in the USA (400 volts times 300 amps). In Europe, they have announced 135kW.

3) Frankenplug is 200–450 V DC and 80 A (36 kW) for DC Level 1 and up to 200 A (90 kW) for DC Level 2:
Tony: Please note that Levels 1 & 2 deal with AC voltage; not DC voltage. Level 3 deals with DC voltage. The SAE Combo charger allows all three levels to be combined in the same plug.
http://www.sae.org/smartgrid/chargingspeeds.pdf


Honestly, it's tough enough just to read your posts, and even tougher to decipher what you want to say. I will say that you're factually flawed. The data I posted is easy to verify, even with links to make it easy for you.

No, "Levels 1 & 2" do not only mean AC voltage. There actually aren't any "Level 3" DC chargers planned, as the Frankenplug is SAE Level 2 DC. Thankfully, I doubt you'll confuse many folks, because they won't be able to read your posts.

Please take the time to learn how to actually make a coherent, legible post.


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[cwerdna]

Honestly, it's tough enough just to read your posts, and even tougher to decipher what you want to say. I will say that you're factually flawed. The data I posted is easy to verify, even with links to make it easy for you.
...
Please take the time to learn how to actually make a coherent, legible post.

Ditto.

Kenn seems confused.

It seems like a lost cause to bother cheerleading for Frankenplug. If more of the players were serious in terms of putting some wood behind their arrow (e.g. in DC FC-capable BEV plans and current plans, putting $ behind Frankenplug DC FC deployments, etc.), then Frankenplug might be worth pursuing. So far, we've seen no evidence of that w/only BMW being the uncertain wildcard. Meanwhile, one standard has massive installed base and is growing while the other is growing rapidly and is very serious, making no ICEVs at all.

Given how few vehicles BMW sells in the US and typical pricing of BMW-branded vehicles, I find it highly unlikely that BMW's EVs/PHEVs will overtake Nissan's unless Nissan exits that segment.

Kenn, if you want to participate in J1772 CCS cheerleading, you'll find a couple supporters (one main one) at http://www.teslamotorsclub.com/showthread.php/12357-SAE-vs-CHAdeMO. Have fun.

We should probably have a separate J1772 CCS vs. CHAdeMO vs. Supercharger thread here. Again, the numbers and evidence (sales, deployments, etc.) for Frankenplug sure don't look good at all vs. the other two.

 

[Pegasus]

We should probably have a separate J1772 CCS vs. CHAdeMO vs. Supercharger thread here.

Yes, please! Moderator, please move these posts there!

I want this thread to discuss hacking another 3.3kW charger onto the Spark EV.

 

[cwerdna]

^^^
I created a new thread at http://www.mychevysparkev.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=7&t=3555. Let's see if anyone moves the posts...