HID Option?

[NORTON]

There is word of mouth, then there are 'Wall pictures of the low beam cutoff pattern".
Safety should not be word of mouth. There should be proof.

I think that's the guy I asked to post some pictures of his low beam pattern.

But then I said I'd be posting pics of my HID install. I just need to get out in the dark and find a good light colored wall that goes from floor to ceiling.
These pics will compare stock to HID.

 

[nozferatu]

I'm interested in putting LED headlamps in my car ... from this thread, it sounds like the only happy camper here is Dinoco with these XenonDepot lights: http://www.xenondepot.com/H13-LED-Headlight-Kit-p/h13-led-hl.htm

Is that correct?

No I was happy with my LED lights...I just didn't like the hue...it was too blue for me. 5K would be the highest color range I'd go for...6K is already too blue for me and makes the car look like a cheap boy racer trying too hard.

 

[NORTON]

Again,,,,

Pictures of the Low Beam pattern on a wall are not an opinion.
Comparisons to the stock patterns are even better.

 

[JoeSchmoe]

Again,,,,

GOOD Pictures of the Low Beam pattern on a wall are not an opinion.
Comparisons to the stock patterns are even better.

Corrected for you. But this touchy subject usually requires too much of your average Joe with a cell phone trying to take a picture. When average Joe doesn't understand how not to over-expose the photo and posts it up not knowing any better people start jumping up and down about the beam pattern...and the safety of the childrens, bunnies and muh 'merican freedoms!

That said, I doubt the reflector on this car is designed well enough to start pushing brighter bulbs. LEDs intrigue me and I think the best way to know how well they work is to just buy and try them rather than wait around for someone with photography skills to come along.

 

[NORTON]

Joe,

I totally agree with you!
Please join the research and show us your GOOD test photos of the LED patterns.

(I'm still trying to find the time and place to take pics of my HID's in action compared to the stock bulbs.)

 

[nozferatu]

Again,,,,

GOOD Pictures of the Low Beam pattern on a wall are not an opinion.
Comparisons to the stock patterns are even better.

Corrected for you. But this touchy subject usually requires too much of your average Joe with a cell phone trying to take a picture. When average Joe doesn't understand how not to over-expose the photo and posts it up not knowing any better people start jumping up and down about the beam pattern...and the safety of the childrens, bunnies and muh 'merican freedoms!

That said, I doubt the reflector on this car is designed well enough to start pushing brighter bulbs. LEDs intrigue me and I think the best way to know how well they work is to just buy and try them rather than wait around for someone with photography skills to come along.

Exactly, putting brighter lights in housings not built for them is pointless.

I know when I had my Fiat 500, the projector headlight set that came stock were ripe for bulb upgrades. They had decent light with stock bulbs but fairly quickly very decent upgrades appeared...plug and play HIDs that were perfect fits, no clocking issues, and the projector patterns were already set so no fuss, not issues. That's how it's done. Plus the color was spot on.

The LED set I got and returned were much brighter than my stock lights. I can tell you that much without any picture comparison. However, like I said, the hue was all wrong for me.

 

[JoeSchmoe]

To clarify, I wouldn't say that putting HIDs in non-HID reflector headlights is an automatic no-no. If you have a well designed halogen reflector with good, controlled beam patterns then adding a decent HID kit will result in similar though brighter output. I've done this in the past and no one in the world could differentiate the HID from the non-HID beam pattern when I adjusted the photos for equal brightness. But a BAD reflector is a BAD reflector and you'll get bad results no matter what you use...even the halogen bulbs the car came with. Just by looking at their output I think the spark headlights fall into the "bad" category, but I'm not willing to discount the efforts of those who put down good money to try for better. So thumbs up to the folks doing us a favor.

 

[NORTON]

....But a BAD reflector is a BAD reflector and you'll get bad results no matter what you use...even the halogen bulbs the car came with. Just by looking at their output I think the spark headlights fall into the "bad" category,.....

Joe,
You may be on to something here.
Just looking at the design of an H13 bulb, it is hard for me to imagine how these two filaments so close together can put out a separate Lo / Hi pattern.
It could be any car running H13's has 'not great' headlights.

Other styles of bulbs have a 180° reflector built into them. Lo is only shining on one half of the headlight reflector, Hi is outside the reflector and lights up the whole headlight assembly reflector.

Another option is to try is the 'High Performance' incandescent bulbs. Only some of those are only rated for 250 hrs. With the Spark EV using them as DRL that is a pretty limited life.

I'm about ready to go back to stock for a while, after I get some decent pics of the HID Hi/Lo bulbs I'm trying out. I think I have too much light above the Lo cutoff pattern.

It's just winter is coming and I drive down dark country roads with suicidal deer. I like great headlights.

 

[nozferatu]

To clarify, I wouldn't say that putting HIDs in non-HID reflector headlights is an automatic no-no. If you have a well designed halogen reflector with good, controlled beam patterns then adding a decent HID kit will result in similar though brighter output. I've done this in the past and no one in the world could differentiate the HID from the non-HID beam pattern when I adjusted the photos for equal brightness. But a BAD reflector is a BAD reflector and you'll get bad results no matter what you use...even the halogen bulbs the car came with. Just by looking at their output I think the spark headlights fall into the "bad" category, but I'm not willing to discount the efforts of those who put down good money to try for better. So thumbs up to the folks doing us a favor.

Yes true you can use the brute force method and install very bright lights in a housing that really wasn't built for them and get better light output. I've yet to see decent halogen bulb housings out there. The latest improvements are the halogen based projector headlights that are, for example, found on the Fiat 500 and other similarly designed projector headlights.

The Spark headlights are pretty average run of the mill halogens. The side of the reflector indicates light isn't very well focused.

 

[solder]

I'm interested in putting LED headlamps in my car ... from this thread, it sounds like the only happy camper here is Dinoco with these XenonDepot lights: http://www.xenondepot.com/H13-LED-Headlight-Kit-p/h13-led-hl.htm

Is that correct?

No I was happy with my LED lights...I just didn't like the hue...it was too blue for me. 5K would be the highest color range I'd go for...6K is already too blue for me and makes the car look like a cheap boy racer trying too hard.

Okay, so the two potential options are:

(nozferatu) http://www.xenondepot.com/H13-LED-Headlight-Kit-p/h13-led-hl.htm -- 20W? 2500Lm 6K $120, passively-cooled
(dinoco) http://www.amazon.com/OPT7-Headlight-Bulbs-Clear-Arc-Beam/dp/B00VNBEBCS -- 80w 7,000Lm 6K $100, fan-cooled

Main concerns mentioned have been the color as being too blue. I'm personally not too worried about being too blue, but that's just me.

Other untested options are something like
http://www.ebay.com/itm/2-x-Cree-High-Power-60W-9008-H13-LED-Headlight-Kit-6000K-White-Hi-LO-Beam-Lights-/291543214430 30W 2500Lm 6K $47, fan-cooled
http://www.ebay.com/itm/NEW-80W-H13-9003-3000k-Amber-6400LM-LED-Headlight-KIT-HIGH-LOW-Dual-Beam-Bulbs-/252094460546 80W 6400Lm 3K $55, fan-cooled

Other colors may be available.

 

[NORTON]

I went back to my post with the Lo pattern picture on the bottom of pg. 2 of this thread. I don't see where I listed the LED's I used.
These are the ones that made the bad Lo pattern: http://smile.amazon.com/gp/product/B00UMHCCSY?psc=1&redirect=true&ref_=oh_aui_detailpage_o03_s01

Beware of any that look like this. A different seller had a similar set and told me they were made by the same manufacturers.
If they only allowed clocking them into the right pattern and then locking that setting.....

 

[nozferatu]

http://www.amazon.com/OPT7-Headlight-Bulbs-Clear-Arc-Beam/dp/B00VNBEBCS -- 80w 7,000Lm 6K $100, fan-cooled

Solder,

I corrected your post for the ones I used. You need to manually clock them by removing the set screw that holds the housing and bulb in place. Unfortunately, there is no way to set the clocking permanently unless you glue the bulb housing and latching mechanism (on the bulb unit) in place after you set the clocking.

However, the fit is a press fit so it's pretty tight.

If you don't have an issue with the blue color, these are a nice set of lights.

 

[NORTON]

I am tempted to give these a try: http://www.amazon.com/Starnill-LED-Headlight-Conversion-Kit/dp/B00ZN5T846/ref=sr_1_3?s=automotive&ie=UTF8&qid=1442944143&sr=1-3&keywords=h13+led+headlight+bulbs#Ask

Anyone want to try these for $73? Help with the search?
Hopefully amazon will make returns easy if the patterns are bad.
I'm wary of all the strange brands on ebay that ship from china. But then, these ship from there too most likely.

One of the encouraging things about this 3 sided design is this; from the Q&A section:
Q: On the dual beam bulbs (H13) - do all three sides light up in low beam mode or is it just one? If so - is it the top side or bottom etc...?
A: Hello, thank you very much for your question, Low Beam is 2 LED lamp bead light, High Beam is 3 LED lamp bead light thank you.

And this from one of the reviews:
"......even the best LED chips only emit at a maximum of 110 to 120 degrees. So it is impossible for any single or even double-sided LED bulb to emit uniform light in a full 360-degree pattern.
However, this well engineered StarNill LED bulb has a 3-sided design that really does emit light in 360 degrees (120+120+120 = 360). This “full circle” emission pattern allows your headlight housing to accurately focus the light being emitted by the bulb onto the road ahead without excessive glare to on-coming traffic."

Who knows how these will play in the Spark EV housing? Maybe the clocking will be adjustable to dial in the perfect patterns. Maybe it will be a big waste of time.

 

[nozferatu]

I am tempted to give these a try: http://www.amazon.com/Starnill-LED-Headlight-Conversion-Kit/dp/B00ZN5T846/ref=sr_1_3?s=automotive&ie=UTF8&qid=1442944143&sr=1-3&keywords=h13+led+headlight+bulbs#Ask

Anyone want to try these for $73? Help with the search?
Hopefully amazon will make returns easy if the patterns are bad.
I'm wary of all the strange brands on ebay that ship from china. But then, these ship from there too most likely.

One of the encouraging things about this 3 sided design is this; from the Q&A section:
Q: On the dual beam bulbs (H13) - do all three sides light up in low beam mode or is it just one? If so - is it the top side or bottom etc...?
A: Hello, thank you very much for your question, Low Beam is 2 LED lamp bead light, High Beam is 3 LED lamp bead light thank you.

And this from one of the reviews:
"......even the best LED chips only emit at a maximum of 110 to 120 degrees. So it is impossible for any single or even double-sided LED bulb to emit uniform light in a full 360-degree pattern.
However, this well engineered StarNill LED bulb has a 3-sided design that really does emit light in 360 degrees (120+120+120 = 360). This “full circle” emission pattern allows your headlight housing to accurately focus the light being emitted by the bulb onto the road ahead without excessive glare to on-coming traffic."

Who knows how these will play in the Spark EV housing? Maybe the clocking will be adjustable to dial in the perfect patterns. Maybe it will be a big waste of time.

Wrong temp for me man...too blue.

Just remember if you want proper clocking in the SPARK EV headlight unit, the face on which the LEDs are placed on has to be perpendicular to the ground. If it is not, the pattern will be off.

 

[NORTON]

noz,

Help me understand the set you had? Was it one side Lo beam and the other side Hi, split vertically when you had a decent Lo pattern?
That would mean only the left or right side of the whole reflector assembly is being lit at a time, by the Lo or Hi LED element.
Is this how the LED's you tested worked?

The stock incandescent H13's put out 360° of light on both filaments, one at a time, and they are only a small distance apart. The black covering on the top isn't even a reflector.
Here's what I'm going on about:


The black plastic has 3 tabs that lock it in. Here's the long tab that lets the bulb go in only one way:

 

[nozferatu]

noz,

Help me understand the set you had? Was it one side Lo beam and the other side Hi, split vertically when you had a decent Lo pattern?
That would mean only the left or right side of the whole reflector assembly is being lit at a time, by the Lo or Hi LED element.
Is this how the LED's you tested worked?

NORTON,

The set I had are these:

http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B00VNBDWPK/ref=s9_simh_gw_p263_d0_i3?pf_rd_m=ATVPDKIKX0DER&pf_rd_s=desktop-1&pf_rd_r=17TYG2C9CG9WBBY6G454&pf_rd_t=36701&pf_rd_p=2079475242&pf_rd_i=desktop

These bulbs had 4 LEDs per bulb...2 for low beam, 4 for high beam. When on low beam, a single LED was on on each side of the bulb. That's a directional light...it's not like an incandescent...so it's focus is far more sensitive than an incandescent. Where you point the LED is where it will shine and when inside a reflector, where it hits that reflector is where it will project. To project with a nice clocked cut off, the LEDs have to be pointing horizontally (which means the face on which the LEDs sit on have to be perpendicular to the floor.

With incandescents, their 360 output creates a poor pattern and hence the lack of a nice clean cut off.

 

[NORTON]

noz,

Thanks for the detailed description. The ability to remove the screws and clock it is important.
I guess there wouldn't be much hope of the 3 sided LED's I linked above, even if it could be clocked.

 

[nozferatu]

noz,

Thanks for the detailed description. The ability to remove the screws and clock it is important.
I guess there wouldn't be much hope of the 3 sided LED's I linked above, even if it could be clocked.

Yea I don't think so unless they are in a housing that really focuses the light...like a proper projector headlight unit.

Check out the Fiat 500's headlight unit...it's a nice set stock...and perfect for upgrades like this.

What really bothers me about how car manufacturers do things is how they cut corners and use "cost" as an excuse.

There are so many cool things they could have done for the Spark EV...much better lighting, better sound system, better shocks, etc...things that frankly really do not cost much to the consumer.

Most people I know would have happily paid an extra $5000-1000 for a package that upgrades lighting, adds side mirror blinkers, a better stereo, a sport suspension..hell even $1500 could have given us all of those things.

This is a car that's on a mass produced chassis...it may have a few differences between the stock Spark but it's 95% the same. Those additional features this car could have had to make it stand out and set an example of how a small, cool EV could be was missed because a bunch of stupid bean counters think it's not worth it.

As consumers we are being so shortchanged by this type of behavior. Lighting is one example of this.

 

[Nashco]

This is a car that's on a mass produced chassis...it may have a few differences between the stock Spark but it's 95% the same. Those additional features this car could have had to make it stand out and set an example of how a small, cool EV could be was missed because a bunch of stupid bean counters think it's not worth it.

As consumers we are being so shortchanged by this type of behavior. Lighting is one example of this.

I completely disagree with your expectations. The Spark EV is based on one of the lowest cost (MSRP) cars in the US. Technically, the base gas model is only more expensive than the gas smart base model, so it's an extremely price-sensitive vehicle which would never get $500 worth of extra options across the model.

Skip to the Spark EV, which was developed for extremely low volumes, low MSRP, and on a rapid development pace. Almost no changes were made that weren't required for the EV basics (powertrain, aerodynamics, rolling resistance, safety, etc.). Nice headlights would not improve the labeled range and would have added significant development costs. Let's just say it was "only" $400k for tooling, testing, and development costs for fancy new headlights. Spread that out over 4000 cars, then add $100 in increased component costs, and that puts it at $1,100 per car in cost. Add an appropriate markup to the company and the dealer, then you're at $1,500 increase in MSRP. Nobody would tolerate that, myself included.

New chassis get new technologies. Our Spark EV is based on an outgoing chassis made for extremely cost sensitive buyers. Note that for the new Volt, LED low beams are standard. In the years since our car was developed, component costs have come down and the development costs can now be spread out over an entire chassis build volume. That means what would have been $1,500 on the Spark EV is only about $100 for the 2016+ Volt, making this an acceptable increase in cost for the improved function. When the Bolt comes out, component costs will have come down again, and then it will be even cheaper still for LED headlights.

You've got one of the first modern EVs (targeting new CARB ZEV mandates) offered at nearly the lowest price on the market of any EV despite being the quickest accelerating and fastest charging EVs available. I wish the headlights on the Spark EV were better, but I certainly understand why they are the same as the gas Sparks and I'm glad I don't have some extremely low volume, high cost option which adds very little value to most buyers. I've convinced several people to lease Spark EVs, and not a single one of them asked me about the headlights. Range, performance, charging, cost, maintenance, etc. are high on the questions asked...but never headlights.

I think it's great that you're trying to figure out a way to improve this function, but I don't think it's necessary to think you're getting short changed on the headlights.

Bryce

 

[nozferatu]

This is a car that's on a mass produced chassis...it may have a few differences between the stock Spark but it's 95% the same. Those additional features this car could have had to make it stand out and set an example of how a small, cool EV could be was missed because a bunch of stupid bean counters think it's not worth it.

As consumers we are being so shortchanged by this type of behavior. Lighting is one example of this.

I completely disagree with your expectations. The Spark EV is based on one of the lowest cost (MSRP) cars in the US. Technically, the base gas model is only more expensive than the gas smart base model, so it's an extremely price-sensitive vehicle which would never get $500 worth of extra options across the model.

Skip to the Spark EV, which was developed for extremely low volumes, low MSRP, and on a rapid development pace. Almost no changes were made that weren't required for the EV basics (powertrain, aerodynamics, rolling resistance, safety, etc.). Nice headlights would not improve the labeled range and would have added significant development costs. Let's just say it was "only" $400k for tooling, testing, and development costs for fancy new headlights. Spread that out over 4000 cars, then add $100 in increased component costs, and that puts it at $1,100 per car in cost. Add an appropriate markup to the company and the dealer, then you're at $1,500 increase in MSRP. Nobody would tolerate that, myself included.

New chassis get new technologies. Our Spark EV is based on an outgoing chassis made for extremely cost sensitive buyers. Note that for the new Volt, LED low beams are standard. In the years since our car was developed, component costs have come down and the development costs can now be spread out over an entire chassis build volume. That means what would have been $1,500 on the Spark EV is only about $100 for the 2016+ Volt, making this an acceptable increase in cost for the improved function. When the Bolt comes out, component costs will have come down again, and then it will be even cheaper still for LED headlights.

You've got one of the first modern EVs (targeting new CARB ZEV mandates) offered at nearly the lowest price on the market of any EV despite being the quickest accelerating and fastest charging EVs available. I wish the headlights on the Spark EV were better, but I certainly understand why they are the same as the gas Sparks and I'm glad I don't have some extremely low volume, high cost option which adds very little value to most buyers. I've convinced several people to lease Spark EVs, and not a single one of them asked me about the headlights. Range, performance, charging, cost, maintenance, etc. are high on the questions asked...but never headlights.

I think it's great that you're trying to figure out a way to improve this function, but I don't think it's necessary to think you're getting short changed on the headlights.

Bryce

I don't see that my expectations are that big of a deal. A Prius C comes with projector lights. A bottom of the barrel Fiat 500 which really isn't much more than a Spark comes with excellent projector lights.

The things I'm asking for are BASIC, already available, off the shelf type products that are very very easily integrated into a car.

Are you saying a better stereo and speaker system even in the cheapest of cars is such a big deal that it'll stop people from buying it?? It's not as price sensitive as you think...the average cost of a car in the States is now about $30K.

I think you're confusing standard, off the shelf components to asking for redesigns. There is nothing special about putting better quality shocks and springs on a car that performs 40% better than the stock car. There is nothing special about putting a decent headlight system in a car that could use it because it's a better performing car. There are no chassis alterations or major redesigns involved.

Who's this "nobody" about tolerating it? I would, you wouldn't. I'd be very happy to pay an extra $40/month for better quality stuff on my car. It's not just about the range..it's about the package as a whole. That's what's important to me. The car needs decent upgrades and could use some flair...just being an EV nowadays isn't good enough.