2014 Spark EV down to 15.3kWh, time to take it to the dealer?

[emotodude]

I am the original owner of my 2014 Spark EV, bought in Oct 2013, just ticked over 40,000 miles. Just got back from a short trip and noticed the battery capacity is seemingly getting rather low. By my maths this equates to ~15.3kWh capacity. Time to get it checked at the dealer? What is the warranty threshold?

 

[SparkE]

I am the original owner of my 2014 Spark EV, bought in Oct 2013, just ticked over 40,000 miles. Just got back from a short trip and noticed the battery capacity is seemingly getting rather low. By my maths this equates to ~15.3kWh capacity. Time to get it checked at the dealer? What is the warranty threshold?

OK, this is from memory, so it might be wrong ... the 2014 Spark EV battery warranty is for 8 years and 100K miles. The definition of "normal" degradation during that period is up to 35% (for a 2014 - I think that it was raised to 40% for 2015 and 2016). If the battery had a 20kWh capacity when new, that would mean you could lose up to 7kWh (i.e., down to 13 kWh when full) and still be considered "within warranty limits". If you are getting an average of 5 mi/kWh, you would lose 35 miles of full-charge range. Now, that is blurring the lines between "actual capacity" and "usable capacity". The battery may, theoretically, be chargeable from completely empty to 'full' with 20 kWh, but the 'usable' capacity may be lower (say, 18 kWh) because GM made it impossible to really, completely, fully charge or discharge (meaning they left a non-user-accessible buffer zone at the top and bottom, to make the battery last longer. I don't remember ever seeing GM publishing official capacity info on the batteries in the Spark (with the clarification that they were 'theoretical' or 'usable'), but some figures I've heard were around 21 kWh for the 2014 (before they changed battery supplier for the 2015). Usable, I would guess was about 18.5 kWh (since the default m/kWh for the car is 4.4, and 82/4.4 is 18.6).

65% of 18.6 is 12
65% of 20 is 13

What does all that mean? You have until 2021 AND 100,000 miles max to use the battery warranty. And you probably can't get it applied until the usable capacity of the battery is below 13 kWh (a highway range of around 57-60 miles in warm weather, around 75 degrees F).

Frankly, it looks like your battery is doing fine, and what will probably happen is that the battery won't degrade enough to get it replaced. So, you drive it several more years until the range just isn't enough for your usage anymore, then :
1) buy a used (4 or 5 -year old) Bolt with ~180-220 miles range for $10K
2) use the Spark only for around town driving after that (the maintenance is pretty much nonexistent, as you know) OR let a kid or a wife or girlfriend drive it while you drive the Bolt

 

[emotodude]

Thanks for all the info. May I inquire where the "official" battery degradation warranty info is? 35% degradation in ~ 5 years seems pretty excessive, and had I understood that from the get-go I might have been less inclined to purchase the car outright...

 

[SparkE]

Thanks for all the info. May I inquire where the "official" battery degradation warranty info is? 35% degradation in ~ 5 years seems pretty excessive, and had I understood that from the get-go I might have been less inclined to purchase the car outright...

There should be a "warranty information" packet/sleeve/envelope in your glove box. If not, post here and maybe somebody has one for the 2014 that they can photo and upload here...

However, getting to math ....

15.3 kWh left out of 20 kWh is 24% degredation, not 35%.

15.3 kWh kWh (usable) out of (maybe?) 18.5 kWh (original usable) is 17% ( (18.5 - 15.3) / 18.5 ), not 35%

The warranty is applied if after 8 YEARS (or 100K miles) the battery drops more than 35%. You aren't in that situation yet.

 

[emotodude]

The lack of concrete battery warranty data is annoying. i.e. 35% after 8 years of what original capacity? That should translate to a known fixed value which should be publicly acknowledged. The original marketing specs were for a 21kWh battery. If somehow, the "useable" is less (and undocumented), and then the degradation allowance is for up to 35% off of that, that's just downright shady tactics...

 

[SparkE]

The lack of concrete battery warranty data is annoying. i.e. 35% after 8 years of what original capacity? That should translate to a known fixed value which should be publicly acknowledged. The original marketing specs were for a 21kWh battery. If somehow, the "useable" is less (and undocumented), and then the degradation allowance is for up to 35% off of that, that's just downright shady tactics...

Well, then, it seems that you could easily fight that if they published 21 kWh battery in the spec. When you calculate that you are getting close to passing 35% degradation around (13.6 kWh), bring it in under warranty and have it checked. You still have about 2 1/2 years (and 60,000 miles) to go, so maybe you will pass the limit and get a replacement battery!

 

[emotodude]

Well, then, it seems that you could easily fight that if they published 21 kWh battery in the spec. When you calculate that you are getting close to passing 35% degradation around (13.6 kWh), bring it in under warranty and have it checked. You still have about 2 1/2 years (and 60,000 miles) to go, so maybe you will pass the limit and get a replacement battery!

Lol, guess I'm hoping for my battery to fail harder.

Also, FYI, I just read through my entire Owners Manual and Warranty books and there is no battery capacity specification anywhere...

 

[scrambler]

Well, the nominal capacity (20 or 21kwh) has definitely nothing to do with the % degradation, as you never got to use that full capacity in the first place. The usable capacity value does not officially appears any where, but is believed to be around 18.4 kWh

From the warranty terms, GM is the only one with all the exact information, and the only ones who will determine if your degradation matches the warranty.

Shady? sure, but that is the way it is

 

[MrDRMorgan]

Thanks for all the info. May I inquire where the "official" battery degradation warranty info is? 35% degradation in ~ 5 years seems pretty excessive, and had I understood that from the get-go I might have been less inclined to purchase the car outright...

There should be a "warranty information" packet/sleeve/envelope in your glove box. If not, post here and maybe somebody has one for the 2014 that they can photo and upload here...

However, getting to math ....

15.3 kWh left out of 20 kWh is 24% degredation, not 35%.

15.3 kWh kWh (usable) out of (maybe?) 18.5 kWh (original usable) is 17% ( (18.5 - 15.3) / 18.5 ), not 35%

The warranty is applied if after 8 YEARS (or 100K miles) the battery drops more than 35%. You aren't in that situation yet.

Here are some battery capacity data points for my 2014 Spark EV w/o DCFC:

17 Aug 15 - 1661 miles - 19.86 kwh from Energy Information screen data
15 Aug 16 - 6021 miles - 18.60 kWh from Energy Information screen data
28 Jun 17 - 10550 miles - 17.73 kWh from Energy Information screen data
20 Jun 18 - 14318 miles - 17.2 kWh as measured by TorquePro
7 Feb 19 - 17076 miles - 16.4 kWh as measured by TorquePro

Note: My current TorquePro data for both my 2014 and 2016 Spark EVs show a ~1 kWh drop in battery capacity when the battery temperature drops from around 30 deg. C to 14 deg. C (Jun 18 to Feb 19). How much of this drop is due to battery temperature and how much is due to degradation I will not know until Jun 19 when the battery temperature will be back up to 30 deg. C.

 

[SparkE]

Here are some battery capacity data points for my 2014 Spark EV w/o DCFC:

17 Aug 15 - 1661 miles - 19.86 kwh from Energy Information screen data
15 Aug 16 - 6021 miles - 18.60 kWh from Energy Information screen data
{...}

So it appears that 20 kWh is a good 'guess' for initial usable capacity. And if GM publish data saying that the initial capaity was 21 kWh, so much the better!!

 

[emotodude]

Here are some battery capacity data points for my 2014 Spark EV w/o DCFC:

17 Aug 15 - 1661 miles - 19.86 kwh from Energy Information screen data
15 Aug 16 - 6021 miles - 18.60 kWh from Energy Information screen data
28 Jun 17 - 10550 miles - 17.73 kWh from Energy Information screen data
20 Jun 18 - 14318 miles - 17.2 kWh as measured by TorquePro
7 Feb 19 - 17076 miles - 16.4 kWh as measured by TorquePro

Note: My current TorquePro data for both my 2014 and 2016 Spark EVs show a ~1 kWh drop in battery capacity when the battery temperature drops from around 30 deg. C to 14 deg. C (Jun 18 to Feb 19). How much of this drop is due to battery temperature and how much is due to degradation I will not know until Jun 19 when the battery temperature will be back up to 30 deg. C.

Thanks for the real data points! Unfortunately I don't think I ever figured out the original useable capacity when I 1st bought my car, also a 2014 w/o DCFC.

I just got Torque Pro and the custom PID's figured out and it claims I have 16.2kWh total capacity. Which obviously doesn't agree with the energy information screen.

Any way you figure it, I am somewhere around 20-25 % degradation after ~5.5 years, if you assume a linear degradation scale over the 8 years to 35%, I am definitely scraping along that bottom line. I'll take it to the dealer if it gets much worse...

 

[MrDRMorgan]

Here are some battery capacity data points for my 2014 Spark EV w/o DCFC:

17 Aug 15 - 1661 miles - 19.86 kwh from Energy Information screen data
15 Aug 16 - 6021 miles - 18.60 kWh from Energy Information screen data
28 Jun 17 - 10550 miles - 17.73 kWh from Energy Information screen data
20 Jun 18 - 14318 miles - 17.2 kWh as measured by TorquePro
7 Feb 19 - 17076 miles - 16.4 kWh as measured by TorquePro

Note: My current TorquePro data for both my 2014 and 2016 Spark EVs show a ~1 kWh drop in battery capacity when the battery temperature drops from around 30 deg. C to 14 deg. C (Jun 18 to Feb 19). How much of this drop is due to battery temperature and how much is due to degradation I will not know until Jun 19 when the battery temperature will be back up to 30 deg. C.

Thanks for the real data points! Unfortunately I don't think I ever figured out the original useable capacity when I 1st bought my car, also a 2014 w/o DCFC.

I just got Torque Pro and the custom PID's figured out and it claims I have 16.2kWh total capacity. Which obviously doesn't agree with the energy information screen.

Any way you figure it, I am somewhere around 20-25 % degradation after ~5.5 years, if you assume a linear degradation scale over the 8 years to 35%, I am definitely scraping along that bottom line. I'll take it to the dealer if it gets much worse...

I would put more faith in the TorquePro numbers as I found regeneration really distorted the values derived from the energy information screen.

You can see from the data I provided that I have lost approximately 18% of my battery capacity and I only have 17K miles on the ODO! Early morning temperatures here in Manteca have be in the low 30s and my TorquePro data shows a drop of about 1 kWh in battery capacity as compared with the June numbers. What I am trying to understand is how much is due to degradation and how much is due to low battery temperatures. I will not know for sure until June when it starts getting hot. But.... all of my driving is in-town and I still see full charge GOM values in the 80s and 90s. When I run the heater with the temperature set to 72 deg. F, I see my mi/kWh drop to around 3.8 to 4.0 until the car starts to warm up.

What I really find interesting is that the TorquePro measured battery degradation rate for my 2014 Spark EV (since June 2018) matches almost exactly with the battery degradation rate (since June 29018) for my 2016 Spark EV with the 2016 degrading just a bit faster. I will know more in June.

 

[fizzit]

I'm not sure if it's a hard rule of 35% degradation = replacement. The dealership I took my spark to said they send the info to GM engineering and they decide whether to replace the battery. The dealership has replaced 2 spark batteries and for one of them, GM called the owner and told them to bring their car in. I'm guessing they get battery data through onstar. I have a 2015 that's down to 14kwh and I'm still waiting to hear back from gm engineering.

 

[scrambler]

I am down to 14kWh, so I will be interested to hear what they tell you

Are they charging you anything for the evaluation of your battery capacity?

Thanks

 

[SparkE]

Having 65% of original 2014 battery would be around 13 kWh remaining.

Having 60% of 2015-16 battery would be around 11 kWh remaining (I seem to recall that for 2015-16 it is loss of 40%).


I knew that there would be battery loss going in, at least 5% a year I figured, so I am not that worried. (Especially since the loss the first year or two is probably higher than later losses.) But then I only paid about $8500 for my vehicle, not $28,500. (After leasing a Spark EV I got very, *very* interested in EVs and noticed that used prices were unbelievably cheap - so I bought used as soon as they started popping up in large numbers.) I also use my Spark as "around town" vehicle (generally 15 mile circle around the house, but up to 30-40 miles away and sometimes further if I will be driving real close to a DCFC) so "only" having 60 miles of range after 5 years is fine with me. I also live in the SF Bay area, where 'cold' means getting below 45F, so the loss due to cold isn't that extreme.

"very, *very* interested in EVs" means (among other things) me tracking all the different EVs that come out, or are announced for for availability 6 months out (or less). My ideal situation would be a combo of two cars for my family : a 125-ish mile BEV and a 30-ish mile (all electric range) PHEV. 120 miles of range covers our normal daily driving over 350 days out of the year. If both of us are driving under 30 miles in the day, no difference. If *one* person is driving 30-110 miles, they take the BEV. If driving further than 110 miles, we take the PHEV (freeway use at 55-ish mph is the best use of a gas engine). That would have us driving electric *almost* all of the time (in 2017, we drove only 3000-ish miles on gas, and over half of those were on 6 distinct days when we travelled over 200 miles each way on trips - the rest were mainly trips to SF, as my wife HATES the extra 20-25 minutes necessary to add 40 miles range to get home, and ... happy wife, happy life, so ...). I'm such a lazy b@sturd, I just can't get away from the ease of a gas fill on a road trip (5 minutes and back on the road for another 400 miles). I really had my eyes on a Hyundai Ioniq pair : one all-electric, and the other PHEV with 30 miles of electric range, 55 mpg, and super, super low emissions on the gas engine. But Hyundai just didn't sell the Ioniq BEV anywhere but L.A. in the U.S. Grrrrr.

 

[TheLondonBroiler]

I recently ticked up from 14.03kwh (first occurred 1/16/19) to 14.06kwh (first occurred 1/10/19), according to Torque Pro. I've had no further loss since, which is highly unusual, as I monitor it each day I drive, and historically, I have a downward figure at least once a week. Also, I've fast charged probably at least 20 times since the figure has fallen last, and most of those were to 100%. I feel like I've hit the floor (of course, now, the Spark will make me a liar tomorrow).

 

[MrDRMorgan]

I recently ticked up from 14.03kwh (first occurred 1/16/19) to 14.06kwh (first occurred 1/10/19), according to Torque Pro. I've had no further loss since, which is highly unusual, as I monitor it each day I drive, and historically, I have a downward figure at least once a week. Also, I've fast charged probably at least 20 times since the figure has fallen last, and most of those were to 100%. I feel like I've hit the floor (of course, now, the Spark will make me a liar tomorrow).

Are you tracking the battery temperature too? From June 2018 thru today, both my 2014 and 2016 Spark EVs show a 1 kWh drop in battery capacity as battery temperature dropped from 27-30 degrees C in the summer down to 14-16 degrees C in the winter. Both EVs are kept in a garage which right now is running about 14-16 degrees C.

I am wondering if this might be some sort of protection built into the battery management software to protect the battery from charging damage at temperatures lower than optimum. If true, I would expect my battery capacity loss to diminish and start going back up as we go into spring and the heat of summer.

Note: Since June of last year, the 2014 has only been driven 3038 miles and the 2016 has been driven 6165 miles.

 

[TheLondonBroiler]

Are you tracking the battery temperature too?

I am wondering if this might be some sort of protection built into the battery management software to protect the battery from charging damage at temperatures lower than optimum.

Note: Since June of last year, the 2014 has only been driven 3038 miles and the 2016 has been driven 6165 miles.

Not tracking temperature. Will be interesting to see how things go when it warms back up consistently here. I did notice that the energy usage screen stated 7.2kwh used @ 50% soc the other day, on a mostly highest trip with outside temp @ ~60°F

I don't know if capacity fluctuation is a programmed limitation or is an intrinsic characteristic of the batteries themselves.

I just passed having done 25,000 personal miles on the Spark, in just over a year. So much for it being a city car, haha.