DC fast charging: J1772 CCS vs CHAdeMO vs Supercharger, etc.

[gra]

Just to be complete, there are also 700+ SCs in the U.S., something over 400 CCS-2 in Europe, and 20+ CCS-1 in the U.S. and Canada. There are maybe 5 eVgo CCS-1 or dual mode chargers shown on Plugshare as 'coming soon' in California.

I'm not sure how to count Superchargers. Is it 700... or 120+ stations?

Both, really. With a couple of exceptions, CHAdeMOs have all been installed singly. I think there's a dual/dual CHAdeMO/CCS in SoCal somewhere and a few multiples in Europe, but no company other than Tesla has been willing to recognize that multiple QCs per location are far more valuable than single QCs in more locations.

I started my drive from San Diego to San Jose area (Los Gatos) tonight. 530 miles. All CHAdeMO charges except in San Luis Obispo area. I'm already in north Los Angeles, leaving for Santa Barbara soon.

I haven't used quick charging since my last LEAF in 2012. Awesome!!!

Enjoy!

 

[TonyWilliams]

... no company other than Tesla has been willing to recognize that multiple QCs per location are far more valuable than single QCs in more locations.

We have two CHAdeMO stations side-by-side in Irvine (I'll be using one in about an hour) plus we are building an 8 charger plaza in Encinitas.

Tesla isn't the "only" game in town.

 

[gra]

... no company other than Tesla has been willing to recognize that multiple QCs per location are far more valuable than single QCs in more locations.

We have two CHAdeMO stations side-by-side in Irvine (I'll be using one in about an hour) plus we are building an 8 charger plaza in Encinitas.

Tesla isn't the "only" game in town.

At the moment, for all intents and purposes they are. The day CHAdeMO/CCS start being widely installed with 3-12 per site on routes outside of major metropolitan areas will be the day that "Tesla isn't the only game in town."

OBTW, for the minimal # of people who might ever think of shipping their Spark EV or other CCS-1 equipped car overseas, it appears that CCS-1 will be used in Australia:

All up, there will be 8 or 9 DC fast chargers, ChaDeMo and SAE Type-1 Combo compatible. Additional 7 kW level 2 AC chargers will be included to satisfy converted cars.

http://insideevs.com/australia-makes-progress-wa-electric-highway/

As Oz has looked to the U.S. rather than Europe since WW2 (for one thing, they know who can and will protect them if push comes to shove), going with the U.S rather than European version makes sense. The number of cars will be tiny in any case, and quite frankly, Oz strikes me as one of the last places that short range BEVs make sense, even with their abundant solar resource.

 

[cwerdna]

Just to be complete, there are also 700+ SCs in the U.S., something over 400 CCS-2 in Europe, and 20+ CCS-1 in the U.S. and Canada. There are maybe 5 eVgo CCS-1 or dual mode chargers shown on Plugshare as 'coming soon' in California.

I'm not sure how to count Superchargers. Is it 700... or 120+ stations?

Both, really. With a couple of exceptions, CHAdeMOs have all been installed singly. I think there's a dual/dual CHAdeMO/CCS in SoCal somewhere and a few multiples in Europe, but no company other than Tesla has been willing to recognize that multiple QCs per location are far more valuable than single QCs in more locations.

Some of the new NRG eVgo Freedom stations now consist of 1 http://nissanqc.com/ CHAdeMO DC FC + 1 dual-standard ABB CHAdeMO + Combo1 DC FC, along w/an L2 (?).

I and others have gone over this over and over again.

Despite nobody asking for the information!!! Don't you ever get tired of hearing your own voice? We hear you banging your drum, but it's so tedious and tired.

Nobody asked for your thoughts on this either. I could say the same about your posts. EVs and PHEVs don't live in a vacuum. There are 3 DC FC standards in the US and it's important that people know what they're getting and what's available for whatever they choose/deciding between. Suppression of information doesn't help that.

Someone w/a Spark EV at my work recently emailed me thinking that the Tesla HPWCs (http://shop.teslamotors.com/products/high-power-wall-connector) installed at work were Tesla "Superchargers"... They are not, but rather L2 EVSEs w/up to 80 amp output (depending on the circuit they're installed on) w/a Tesla proprietary connector instead of a J1772 handle.

Based on your comments, it sounds like you should be spending some time helping those ignorant about DC fast chargers learn the difference between the standards. Tell people about Plugshare.

I have. I've discussed this MANY times w/people interested in or considering EVs/PHEVs. I've emailed and discussed this subject w/facilities people at my work and the EV valets (who were also confused about Tesla "Superchargers"). They had considered installing DC FCs. I suggested they not bother but if they were to do so (based on the vehicles our employees have) to install a CHAdeMO DC FC or at least 1 dual-standard CHAdeMO + Combo1 DC FC. I've told them about the lousy reliability of http://nissanqc.com/ (and associated required air filter cleaning) and general unreliability and downtime of the CHAdeMO DC FCs in the area. The list goes on... too much to list.

And yes, I tell people about Plugshare all the time. I sometimes leave a Plugshare sticker on my dash. I have pinned up a Plugshare sticker at my cubicle at work. I sometimes wear my Plugshare hat.

If you don't like my posts, you can ignore them or add me as a foe.

I've yet to hear Spark EV owners complain about their charging and plug and station issues.

There most definitely are, at least on Plugshare, but admittedly, mostly from one guy. Maybe he's a user here... Here are a few examples I found.

From http://api.plugshare.com/view/location/51792

joel a month ago
Chevy Spark EV CANNOT BE REILIABLY CHARGED HERE. fifth and final try. after waiting 35 seconds each time, I still get an error message.
joel a month ago
third try in a row. message reads, CHARGING FINISHED again, still not charged. trying again

http://api.plugshare.com/view/location/8428

19 days ago
caroline, yep! that's what ive been saying! but when I call to find out if it's working they have in the past told me it is. so drove there only to find it isnt then had to spend an hour or more at the L2 charger to get just enough juice to make it home, not to continue my work. they say they're going to fix it though. my fingers are crossed. this is a great resource when it works and isnt taken up by a line of leafs. btw, leaf drivers, when this place is working again fir us SAE people, please park on either of the side stalls. we need the middle stall to reach our cars. thanks!

Caroline 19 days ago
SAE combo isn't working. Called and the issue is the cable.
joel 20 days ago
The chademo always works. It figures. you leaf drivers are in good hands. I, however, am driving one experimental EV with hardly a charge station in sight being the only one in the region is down. it seems they only put charge stations in super remote locations where not needed such as atwater and point reyes. if they only had one in the metropolitain area of SF or Oakland it would serve so many thousands of drivers and would be used regularly wether free or 3 to 5$ a charge.

joel 21 days ago
apparently the unit being reset is not enough to get it working this time. btw, there should be an auto reset on a timer that perhaps resets the system 4x daily. but I think the problem now is a lack of electrical connection. can someone with a spark or i3 be so kind as to go back and test the station periodically to see if it works? I live too far and would need to use the majority of my battery just getting there.

joel 22 days ago
this is really pissing me off. can I just pay someone parts and labor to repair the shify computer or charging handle that has an issue? im losing so much time and money because of this.
...
joel 23 days ago
is it working again for sparks and bmws?
joel 23 days ago
SAE COMBO OUT AGAIN DUE TO COMPUTER CRASH. PLEASE RESET! IM STUCK HERE!
...
joel a month ago
PLEASE if you have a LEAF, extend the courtesy of leaving the middle space open for the Spark EV, or BMW i3 as it is the only space where our vehicles can reach the charger. The leaf can reach the charger from ANY space.
joel a month ago
after about 6 tries and fijiting with the pins inside the connector i was able to start. the SAE plug definitely needs servicing.

http://api.plugshare.com/view/location/57304

12 hours ago
how long will it be to fix the SAE? It's the only one in my area! shame it went out just after opening.

"was - " joel a day ago
SAE COMBO
joel 8 days ago
why no SAE COMBO? DO WE NOT MATTER? This is a brand new station and sae combo has been out for a long time and the east bay still doesn't have one. we dont need any more CHADEMO in the east bay. there are already plenty. I can't believe a new station would come up that does not include tge American standard fast charger. only japanese.

There are TONS of BMW i3 folks on the i3 Facebook group in the US wanting DC FCs. And at least every few weeks, we see someone confused not realizing that CHAdeMO isn't compatible w/their non-Japanese market i3, often mentioning a Nissan dealer and/or posting a pic of the CHAdeMO connector.

If those above folks had a CHAdeMO or Tesla Supercharger compatible vehicle, they'd have at least more stations to choose from. And, for the latter, it seems the chances of finding one working are pretty good.

 

[gra]

Via ievs.com:

Crevier BMW Installs 4 DC Fast Chargers, 6 Level 2 EVSEs

http://insideevs.com/crevier-bmw-installs-4-dc-fast-chargers-6-level-2-evses/

Now, the question is what's their charging policy for non-i3s? Are they going to take a 'big tent' approach like Kia, be extremely restrictive, or something in the middle? Anyway, this is the first CCS-1 install at a BMW dealer I know of, using their own (well, Bosch) QC.

 

[cwerdna]

Via ievs.com:

Crevier BMW Installs 4 DC Fast Chargers, 6 Level 2 EVSEs

http://insideevs.com/crevier-bmw-installs-4-dc-fast-chargers-6-level-2-evses/

Now, the question is what's their charging policy for non-i3s? Are they going to take a 'big tent' approach like Kia, be extremely restrictive, or something in the middle? Anyway, this is the first CCS-1 install at a BMW dealer I know of, using their own (well, Bosch) QC.

Yep, I reported this at http://www.mychevysparkev.com/forum/viewtopic.php?p=9205#p9205. The pic used by the above story is from https://www.facebook.com/photo.php?fbid=514093888729757&set=gm.737827142957816&type=1. Will be interesting to see what policies BMW dealers end up having about who can charge, for what cost (if any) and hours of accessibility. We've been through this all before w/Nissan. It was all over the map and still is.

BMW has a golden opportunity here.

Yet another example of a Spark EV owner complaining (same guy as before).

http://api.plugshare.com/view/location/50976 (which is CHAdeMO only, but incorrectly labeled, at one point)

joel 18 days ago
we could use an SAE combo connector for the 3000 bmw i3's, the 1000 chevy spark EVs and the VW egolf coming out next month.
joel 22 days ago
Thankfully I was able to change the label
joel 22 days ago
this is NOT SAE! IT'S CHADEMO ONLY. PEOPLE NEED TO UNDERSTAND THE BUSINESS THEY'RE IN! You're gonna throw people off and potentially get them STUCK!
...
joel a month ago
why don't they include SAE combo? it's the American and European standard. as of 2015 there are 3 makes/models sold in the US with this standard. how many use chademo? ONE! I REST MY CASE

Sorta of a complaint below. I actually have met the John in question here. He has a BMW i3. This station was also incorrectly labeled as having CHAdeMO + Combo1 earlier.

http://api.plugshare.com/view/location/53811

John 3 months ago
A comment left 10 days ago stated that this was was for CHAdeMO, CCS & L2. Unfortunately for me, there is no CCS charger at this site. There is a CHAdeMO charger (which is not compatible with my car) and a L2. I charged with the L2 for maybe 10 minutes. No card required as of Sep 2, but that is due to change. The signage still says "coming soon" but I can confirm that at least the L2 works.

 

[gra]

Not that it matters for U.S. J1772/CCS, but ievs.com has the following article:

Europe Exceeds 600 CCS Chargers Installed (w/statistics)

http://insideevs.com/europe-exceed-600-ccs-chargers-installed/

Note that these are CCS-2, not the CCS-1 fitted to U.S. (and apparently Australian) CCS-equipped BEVs. The current U.S. total is approaching 50, but that number has roughly doubled in the past month or so, as eVgo and Kia have both added CCS chargers in California.

 

[TonyWilliams]

Not that it matters for U.S. J1772/CCS, but ievs.com has the following article:

Europe Exceeds 600 CCS Chargers Installed (w/statistics)

http://insideevs.com/europe-exceed-600-ccs-chargers-installed/

Note that these are CCS-2, not the CCS-1 fitted to U.S. (and apparently Australian) CCS-equipped BEVs. Te current U.S. total is approaching 50, but that number has roughly doubled in the past month or so, as eVgo and Kia have both added CCS chargers in California.

“In the United States, the (Nissan/Renault) Alliance’s biggest electric vehicle market, there are more than 750 (CHAdeMO) quick chargers in operation. Nissan is working with its dealers and charging partners to increase that number to 1,100 by mid-2015. The quick chargers are able to charge a LEAF from zero to 80% capacity in about 30 minutes.”

“In Japan, the Alliance’s second-biggest EV market, there are more than 2,900 quick chargers in operation. Nissan and Japan’s three other top automakers have pledged to work together to raise that number to 6,000 by March 2015.”

So far in 2014, the world EV sales leader Nissan LEAF has sold a total of 27,098 LEAFs, 35% better than the 20,081 sold through the first 11 months of 2013.

 

[cwerdna]

CHAdeMO is still adding stations quickly:

“The number of CHAdeMO DC Quick chargers installed up to today is 4241.
– (Japan 2129, Europe 1327, USA 731, Others 54)

Tony's above post was on 10/11/14.
Now, per http://www.chademo.com/:

"The number of CHAdeMO DC Quick chargers installed up to today is 5010.
-- (Japan 2819 Europe 1327 USA 810 Others 54) last update 2015.01.06"

On the note of Leaf sales, over 30K were sold in the US in 2014 and about 60K units were sold worldwide. The installed base is somewhere past 61K units in the US as of Sept 2014.

http://nissannews.com/en-US/nissan/usa/releases/nissan-celebrates-30-000-leaf-sales-in-2014-best-year-ever-for-sales-of-any-plug-in-vehicle
http://cleantechnica.com/2015/01/06/2014-nissan-leaf-sales-top-30000-strongest-year-ever-sales-ev-phev/
http://nissannews.com/en-US/nissan/usa/releases/nissan-celebrates-with-more-than-60-000-u-s-leaf-owners-during-national-drive-electric-week

And per GRA's post at http://www.mynissanleaf.com/viewtopic.php?p=407073#p407073.
"Total U.S. SCs now 36/145/950"

So for the US, that's Superchargers in 36 states, 145 sites, making up a total of 950 charging stalls.

The http://shop.teslamotors.com/collections/model-s/products/chademo-adapter is still listed as coming soon but it's now $450. This is still odd since Japanese Model S owners have had theirs for many months already.

 

[TonyWilliams]

Worldwide "Quick Charging" standards:

1) CHAdeMO (IEC System A)

2) GB/T (IEC System B)

3) SAE CCS COMBO1 (IEC System C)

4) Menekkes CCS COMBO2 (IEC System C)

5) Supercharger (Tesla only, not recognized by IEC)

6) Chameleon (AC Charging 22kW or 43kW, Renault only, not IEC recognized)




USA Quick Charge data, sometimes colloquially referred to as "DC" or "L3"

***********

1) CHAdeMO - 5010 worldwide, 810 in the USA (9 Jan 2015), adding about 2-3 per day
Japan 2,819 (56%)
Europe 1,327 (27%)
US 810 (16%)
Others 54 (1%)
http://www.chademo.com
up to 100kW eventually, currently limited to 62.5kW

The only DC protocol that uses the same plug worldwide

Nissan announced (Dec 2014) that they would increase USA to over 1000 stations by mid-2015, and 6000 total in Japan.

EVs compatible with CHAdeMO include:

*Nissan LEAF - over 60,000 in the USA and over 140,000 worldwide
*Nissan e-NV200 (coming 2015)
*Citroen C-Zero - not sold in USA
*Citroën Berlingo - not sold in USA
*Honda hydrogen car (used for Vehicle to Home/Grid only)
*Mitsubishi i-MiEV - over 30,000 worldwide with its variants C-Zero & iON
*Mitsubishi Outlander PHEV (coming 2015)
*Mitsubishi Fuso Canter truck
*Peugeot iON - not sold in USA
*Peugeot Partner - not sold in USA
*Kia Soul EV (coming Oct 2014)
*ZERO motorcycles
*Tesla except Roadster with Tesla supplied adaptor
*Toyota Mirai hydrogen car (used for Vehicle to Home/Grid only)
*Toyota RAV4 EV with "JdeMO" from Quick Charge Power

***************

2) GB/T - China only, not offered in USA

***************

3) SAE CCS Combo1, or "J1772 DC" - approximately 50 in the USA (and worldwide) as of Dec 2014
http://standards.sae.org/j1772_201210/
up to 100kW eventually, probably limited to 25-50kW
Uses a different plug in Europe (Menekkes CCS Combo2) than the plug used in USA

EVs compatible include:

*GM Spark EV - about 1000 cars (adding about 50 per month in two CARB-ZEV states)
*BMW i3 - 3000 cars sold in USA through 1 Oct 2014
*VW eGolf (1 sold Oct 31, 2014)

***********

4) Menekkes CCS Combo2, Europe only, not offered in the USA

***********

5) Supercharger - 336 stations worldwide with 1856 charging stalls, 145 stations with 950 stalls (9 Jan 2015) in the USA, each with 2-14 stalls at each station, growing fast
http://www.teslamotors.com/supercharger
up to 135kW, cars currently limited to 120kW

Uses a different plug in Europe than the one used in North America and Japan

EVs compatible with Supercharger include:

*Tesla only, except Roadster - 55,000 worldwide

*******

6) Chameleon - Renault cars only, mostly France, and throughout Europe, not offered in USA

 

[Nashco]

To clear up confusion for those not highly informed about EVs, the last couple of posts are almost entirely about charging standards and cars unrelated to the Spark EV.

For those who want regular accounts on available SAE "fast charge" stations which are used by the Spark EV, I suggest you check plugshare.com for the most up to date information (filter for "SAE Combo DCFC"). These stations are coming online so fast that anything on this forum is almost immediately out of date. For "normal" Level 2 stations in your area, filter for "EV Plug (J1772)" which will show many places to plug in your Spark EV in your area.

http://www.plugshare.com/

For those who want regular accounts on volumes of vehicles sold in the US, this is an extremely accurate and regularly updated account of US vehicle sales:

http://insideevs.com/monthly-plug-in-sales-scorecard/

As you can see on that page, in three years we've gone from only a few plug-in vehicles in the US to over 20 vehicles to choose from, so this is an extremely quickly developing market and any information posted on internet forums is almost immediately out of date.

Bryce

 

[TonyWilliams]

As you can see on that page, in three years we've gone from only a few plug-in vehicles in the US to over 20 vehicles to choose from, so this is an extremely quickly developing market and any information posted on internet forums is almost immediately out of date.

Bryce

So, I guess your info is horribly out of date then, eh?

For my post just a wee bit up thread, I actually put the date when many of the data points were accurate. Cars and chargers aren't showing up faster than the Internet can keep track of it, but that's a pretty rich thought.

***********

1) CHAdeMO - 5010 worldwide, 810 in the USA (9 Jan 2015)


3) SAE CCS Combo1, or "J1772 DC" - approximately 50 in the USA (and worldwide) as of Dec 2014

*GM Spark EV - about 1000 cars (adding about 50 per month in two CARB-ZEV states)
*BMW i3 - 3000 cars sold in USA through 1 Oct 2014
*VW eGolf (1 sold Oct 31, 2014)

5) Supercharger - 336 stations worldwide with 1856 charging stalls, 145 stations with 950 stalls (9 Jan 2015)

 

[gra]

The interesting thing to me is the recent addition of a dual standard ABB QC at a Nissan dealer in SLC. See Plugshare. Other than that, Norcal is now showing 18 CCS, and SoCal 33 on Plugshare.

 

[TonyWilliams]

The interesting thing to me is the recent addition of a dual standard ABB QC at a Nissan dealer in SLC. See Plugshare. Other than that, Norcal is now showing 18 CCS, and SoCal 33 on Plugshare.

I've been testing the ABB stations, and so far, they are almost perfect. I did have a few problems with shutdown while testing JdeMO on my Rav4 EV, so I'm not sure what that's about.

By the way, we were able to successfully find a Blink DC charger that worked (very difficult) and test it successfully with JdeMO. At the time it was being tested, a Tesla Model S pulled in and tried to use the CHAdeMO adaptor (also a beta test, as Tesla has not released this in the USA).

Our car charged, his car did not.

:mrgreen:

 

[user 527]

Disclaimer: I've not read every post on this long thread.

I understand why ev owners with the CHAdeMO plug might prefer to have no challengers—it's basic instinct—but the bias against the Spark EV quick charge plug has grown long in the tooth, with its DEAD ON ARRIVAL assessment remaining the subtext as numbers are rolled out (despite the fact that they reflect a static moment in time).

The CHAdeMo plug came to the track early and has now logged hundreds of laps. So what! This tells us nothing about the runner's ability, especially compared to other runners. Just might be too soon to tell who's the better long distance runner.

 

[gra]

Plugshare is currently showing 81 CCS-1 in North America. Of that total, 10 are in Canada (Quebec + 1 in Ontario), 52 in California, and Oregon remains stuck at 7. Note that I've not gone to the trouble of clicking on every one of the icons to see if they are really operational and not someone posting 'coming soon' (Plugshare seems to be getting very good at removing those quickly), or sites that clearly aren't CCS, so the numbers could well be too high. The new ones I have checked photos of, in SLC and Minnesota, are ABB CCS/CHAdeMO units.

 

[KeiJidosha]

"BMW Partners With Volkswagen & ChargePoint. Announces Beginning of Large Scale CCS Fast Charge Rollout in US"

http://bmwi3.blogspot.com/2015/01/bmw-partners-with-volkswagen.html

 

[TonyWilliams]

"BMW Partners With Volkswagen & ChargePoint. Announces Beginning of Large Scale CCS Fast Charge Rollout in US"

http://bmwi3.blogspot.com/2015/01/bmw-partners-with-volkswagen.html

The "corridor" charging locations (not dealers) will be dual CHAdeMO / CCS-Combo1 made by Efacec.

 

[user 527]

"BMW Partners With Volkswagen & ChargePoint. Announces Beginning of Large Scale CCS Fast Charge Rollout in US"

http://bmwi3.blogspot.com/2015/01/bmw-partners-with-volkswagen.html

The "corridor" charging locations (not dealers) will be dual CHAdeMO / CCS-Combo1 made by Efacec.

Corridor aside, it will be nice if some of the thousands of CHAdeMO-only stations reciprocate the gesture by adding CCS-Combo.

 

[TonyWilliams]

"BMW Partners With Volkswagen & ChargePoint. Announces Beginning of Large Scale CCS Fast Charge Rollout in US"

http://bmwi3.blogspot.com/2015/01/bmw-partners-with-volkswagen.html

The "corridor" charging locations (not dealers) will be dual CHAdeMO / CCS-Combo1 made by Efacec.

Corridor aside, it will be nice if some of the thousands of CHAdeMO-only stations reciprocate the gesture by adding CCS-Combo.

Well, that's an interesting thought. I happen to own a CHAdeMO station, which was operational before the CCS crowd was a "thing".

So, what do you recommend I do? if your response includes spending money, just let me know where that comes from. Also, should yet another "standard" come along, as it absolutely will, please indicate what should be done then.

We charge 15 cents per minute for service.