DC fast charging: J1772 CCS vs CHAdeMO vs Supercharger, etc.

[TonyWilliams]

Woo Hoo!!! Tesla went coast to coast in 76 hours total time, but they did have one breakdown; the oil burner chase van.

 

[cwerdna]

For urban-only cars, we may well see the iMiEV break out this year in California and other states with their own incentives. For those who can live with its range, it's a hell of a deal.

Re: i-MiEV ...I wouldn't be so sure about that. Sales (http://insideevs.com/wp-content/uploads/2014/01/2013-sales-chart-final6.png) have been absolutely dismal.

Yeah, they cut the price and added more stuff as standard (http://green.autoblog.com/2013/12/04/mitsubishi-i-miev-priced-ridiculously-low-22995/) including a CHAdeMO port, (off the top of my head) but I'm not sure if the '14 i-MiEVs hit dealers for those December sales numbers. We should see January 2014 sales numbers in the next few days.

Maybe Mitusbishi needs to try to push them stronger to governments, fleets and businesses. They could be used for parking enforcement and security cars. And, they could be pitched as alternatives to GEM cars.

 

[gatedad]

I read somewhere that the MY 14's are not available until late Spring 2014(June?).

 

[TonyWilliams]

I read somewhere that the MY 14's are not available until late Spring 2014(June?).

That's correct. The new, redesigned iMiev isn't released yet. It will come standard with CHAdeMO, as does the new Outlander Plug-In hybrid (the only hybrid that I know of with a DC quick charger port).

 

[gra]

I read somewhere that the MY 14's are not available until late Spring 2014(June?).

That's correct. The new, redesigned iMiev isn't released yet. It will come standard with CHAdeMO, as does the new Outlander Plug-In hybrid (the only hybrid that I know of with a DC quick charger port).

Right. iMiEV sales won't take off until the '14s arrive, but then I expect to see them zoom, at least relatively. And I think the FFE may surprise us too, now that Ford is putting so much money on the table. Now if only they could get the batteries out of the cargo area, offer CCS or some other QC capability, or preferably both, the car would become a really tough competitor for the LEAF.

 

[TonyWilliams]

... offer CCS or some other QC capability, or preferably both, the car would become a really tough competitor for the LEAF.

Here's an observation that I shared with the manager in charge of the Nissan LEAF; should Frankenplug ever actually become more than a joke, look how easy it is to add two DC pins under the J1772 inlet to make acess to dual DC charger protocols.

Then, they would have a car that is:

1) the largest selling EV car in history with over 100,000 going to a million
2) able to charge at ANY public charging station
3) like Tesla cars, where the LEAF can charge "everywhere", while the Frankenplug competition is stuck with just their own pitiful network
4) when there's so many LEAFs, Tesla's (with adaptor), and Mitsubishi's , Kia's, etc, that are already overloading public CHAdeMO charging, the LEAF will be able to pop over to the little used Franken-station
5) GM and BMW will be upset when their customers show up complaining that first, there were no stations, and now that there are a few stations, 200,000 Nissan LEAFs are using them all the time

Like Tesla, keep your base charging protocol, but make it universal to charge anywhere. If there's anything Nissan can count on is that their competition will be clueless as to how to compete with this. Do you see GM using CHAdeMO... ever?

By the way, both BMW and VW will use CHAdeMO in Japan.

 

[gra]

... offer CCS or some other QC capability, or preferably both, the car would become a really tough competitor for the LEAF.

Here's an observation that I shared with the manager in charge of the Nissan LEAF; should Frankenplug ever actually become more than a joke, look how easy it is to add two DC pins under the J1772 inlet to make acess to dual DC charger protocols.

Then, they would have a car that is:

1) the largest selling EV car in history with over 100,000 going to a million
2) able to charge at ANY public charging station
3) like Tesla cars, where the LEAF can charge "everywhere", while the Frankenplug competition is stuck with just their own pitiful network
4) when there's so many LEAFs, Tesla's (with adaptor), and Mitsubishi's , Kia's, etc, that are already overloading public CHAdeMO charging, the LEAF will be able to pop over to the little used Franken-station
5) GM and BMW will be upset when their customers show up complaining that first, there were no stations, and now that there are a few stations, 200,000 Nissan LEAFs are using them all the time

Like Tesla, keep your base charging protocol, but make it universal to charge anywhere. If there's anything Nissan can count on is that their competition will be clueless as to how to compete with this. Do you see GM using CHAdeMO... ever?

By the way, both BMW and VW will use CHAdeMO in Japan.

If GM decides to sell BEVs in Japan, sure I can see them using CHAdeMO there, if that's the best thing to do from a business point of view. Since they probably won't sell this generation there it's a moot point. As for the LEAF being the best selling EV, well, yeah, but I consider it a deeply-flawed EV (for the U.S. and similar markets that experience temperature extremes) that, when the tidal wave of early battery degradation hits this summer or next and all the range-crippled cars start coming in off lease and are worth next-to-nothing, may well put more people off BEVs than it brought to them. That's what I'm most worried about. I think GM (and Ford) engineered their cars properly for the total U.S. market, and Nissan didn't.

 

[TonyWilliams]

... What I'm trying to convey is that the shock and awe of Tesla achieving what they have isn't as monumental as everyone thinks it is in terms of engineering. They've created a heavy, big, battery laden vehicle with a huge motor and charge an arm/leg for it. And they've created their own charging standard where a few others are saying "well since they are successful everyone should use that system."

I don't know of a SINGLE post in this forum by ANYONE suggesting that the Tesla charging standard should be adopted for sub-100 mile compliance cars, like the Spark EV and virtually ever other EV out there. For starters, you could not drive a limited range car the distance required between Tesla charging spots (typically 150 miles apart, but some are much further). Did that simple thought even enter your mind?

Folks who summarily dismiss any advancement out-of-hand without even a firm grasp of the issues really are a special breed, and certainly you're one of them. You don't kick the dog when you come home, do you?

No I'm not..I know you aren't saying what they are saying. Those two are their own entities lol.

Aren't you the giddy school girl here!?!?! I suspect the personal attacks will continue from you, so you won't mind if I return the favor, right? It's all good, right?

:mrgreen:

 

[nozferatu]

I don't know of a SINGLE post in this forum by ANYONE suggesting that the Tesla charging standard should be adopted for sub-100 mile compliance cars, like the Spark EV and virtually ever other EV out there. For starters, you could not drive a limited range car the distance required between Tesla charging spots (typically 150 miles apart, but some are much further). Did that simple thought even enter your mind?

I've not heard you say a single good thing about the charging scheme the Spark EV uses...nor for the BMW i3...it's been nothing but whining and criticism from you.

Folks who summarily dismiss any advancement out-of-hand without even a firm grasp of the issues really are a special breed, and certainly you're one of them. You don't kick the dog when you come home, do you?

Indeed...your grasp of reality is limited to what you like and want it seems. I don't think you understand the concept of competition and growth.

Aren't you the giddy school girl here!?!?! I suspect the personal attacks will continue from you, so you won't mind if I return the favor, right? It's all good, right?

Oh dear...I think you've dished out enough negativity and vitriol hate for the Spark and SAE plug to last everyone here a lifetime. Honestly, if you could step off your high horse and listen to yourself you'd realize how nasty and negative you sound.

 

[markcmann]

A little fuel for the fire:

http://www.greencarreports.com/news...networks-nissan-chademo-vs-tesla-supercharger

It's interesting that the article fails to mention Tesla's $1000 CHAdeMO Adapter...

 

[NomadMac]

You two stop it this instant! Don't make me come down there!

 

[markcmann]

PSSSSST, hey you guys, yes you, over here... I'm not really sure why the BMW i3 is even a topic on this Spark EV forum but let's see if we can all get back on target a little bit here.

Below is a link on the initial launch trim level of the advanced little electric bimmer:

http://www.greencarreports.com/news...ers-limited-to-single-trim-level-for-3-months

 

[nozferatu]

You two stop it this instant! Don't make me come down there!

LOL... :lol:

 

[gra]

You two stop it this instant! Don't make me come down there!

Considering the context, shouldn't that be "If you two don't stop that, I'm going to turn this car around!" :lol:

 

[TonyWilliams]

A little fuel for the fire:

http://www.greencarreports.com/news...networks-nissan-chademo-vs-tesla-supercharger

It's interesting that the article fails to mention Tesla's $1000 CHAdeMO Adapter...

The coup d'État on that write up is that the moribund Frankenplug didn't even get a mention that it existed.

Just checked the www.CHAdeMO.com site; it looks like almost one per work day is being installed somewhere within Europe alone. I wonder how many Frankenplugs went in?

The number of CHAdeMO DC Quick chargers installed up to today is 3553.
-- (Japan 1,967 Europe 1020 USA 554 Others 12) last update 2014.02.11

 

[TonyWilliams]

I don't know of a SINGLE post in this forum by ANYONE suggesting that the Tesla charging standard should be adopted for sub-100 mile compliance cars, like the Spark EV and virtually ever other EV out there. For starters, you could not drive a limited range car the distance required between Tesla charging spots (typically 150 miles apart, but some are much further). Did that simple thought even enter your mind?

I've not heard you say a single good thing about the charging scheme the Spark EV uses...nor for the BMW i3...it's been nothing but whining and criticism from you.

I feel like a glimmer of reality just fell on your head! Yes, I'm critical of the "charging scheme" (good description, too) that BMW proposed to use in the USA only (they will use CHAdeMO in Japan, and the German Menekkes Frankenplug in Europe).

GM has likely only delivered a few dozen Frankenplug compatible cars. They don't have to worry about CHAdeMO or the incompatible Menekkes version of Frankenplug, since they only sell the car in California and Oregon for regulatory compliance.

By the way, Volkswagon will use it, too, for their eGolf compliance car.

I do accept the challenge to say something positive about CCS:

1) directly due to the Frankenplug announcement, CHAdeMO changed their standard from a closed proprietary one to an open one.

2) directly due to the Frankenplug announcement, Nissan actually got in the game of installing chargers. The buildout of charging infrastructure would be far slower if the pressure of at least a potential Frankenplug competitor wasn't present.

3) directly due to the Frankenplug announcement, and their attempts to legislate competitors out of business, laws are being written to protect all charger standards in Europe.

Folks who summarily dismiss any advancement out-of-hand without even a firm grasp of the issues really are a special breed, and certainly you're one of them. You don't kick the dog when you come home, do you?

Indeed...your grasp of reality is limited to what you like and want it seems. I don't think you understand the concept of competition and growth.

Oh, I do understand competition very well. I'm competing against Frankenplug, much like GM and German car makers are competing against CHAdeMO. I know we're winning now and I hope we win long enough for the next generation of quick charging to arrive. This article gives me hope: not even a mention of Frankenplug.

http://www.greencarreports.com/news/1090259_electric-car-fast-charging-networks-nissan-chademo-vs-tesla-supercharger

 

[nozferatu]

I don't know of a SINGLE post in this forum by ANYONE suggesting that the Tesla charging standard should be adopted for sub-100 mile compliance cars, like the Spark EV and virtually ever other EV out there. For starters, you could not drive a limited range car the distance required between Tesla charging spots (typically 150 miles apart, but some are much further). Did that simple thought even enter your mind?

I've not heard you say a single good thing about the charging scheme the Spark EV uses...nor for the BMW i3...it's been nothing but whining and criticism from you.

I feel like a glimmer of reality just fell on your head! Yes, I'm critical of the "charging scheme" (good description, too) that BMW proposed to use in the USA only (they will use CHAdeMO in Japan, and the German Menekkes Frankenplug in Europe).

GM has likely only delivered a few dozen Frankenplug compatible cars. They don't have to worry about CHAdeMO or the incompatible Menekkes version of Frankenplug, since they only sell the car in California and Oregon for regulatory compliance.

By the way, Volkswagon will use it, too, for their eGolf compliance car.

I do accept the challenge to say something positive about CCS:

1) directly due to the Frankenplug announcement, CHAdeMO changed their standard from a closed proprietary one to an open one.

2) directly due to the Frankenplug announcement, Nissan actually got in the game of installing chargers. The buildout of charging infrastructure would be far slower if the pressure of at least a potential Frankenplug competitor wasn't present.

3) directly due to the Frankenplug announcement, and their attempts to legislate competitors out of business, laws are being written to protect all charger standards in Europe.

Folks who summarily dismiss any advancement out-of-hand without even a firm grasp of the issues really are a special breed, and certainly you're one of them. You don't kick the dog when you come home, do you?

Indeed...your grasp of reality is limited to what you like and want it seems. I don't think you understand the concept of competition and growth.

Oh, I do understand competition very well. I'm competing against Frankenplug, much like GM and German car makers are competing against CHAdeMO. I know we're winning now and I hope we win long enough for the next generation of quick charging to arrive. This article gives me hope: not even a mention of Frankenplug.

http://www.greencarreports.com/news/1090259_electric-car-fast-charging-networks-nissan-chademo-vs-tesla-supercharger

That's the point...no one here is competing...they are simply enjoying their cars without whining about it like a petulant child.

 

[Oberon]

I'm competing against Frankenplug, much like GM and German car makers are competing against CHAdeMO.

You present yourself as an advocate of EV's in general so the plug obsession is both irritating and baffling. The plug standards contest is really just a flea on the side of an elephant as far as obstacles to EV uptake go, but some of your many posts about it get so wound up and hostile that you end up sounding like a crank.

If you don't work for Nissan, or a plug supplier, why do you care so passionately about the plug? It's just a plug. What drives this level of energy? Did a malfunctioning CCS prototype electrocute your dog? To say "I'm competing against Frankenplug" implies a direct stake in the battle, not just a general desire to protect under-informed consumers. Honest discourse requires that if you do have a financial or career interest in the plug wars, you should disclose it.

 

[TonyWilliams]

Honest discourse requires that if you do have a financial or career interest in the plug wars, you should disclose it.

I'm very, very open about my specific interests in EV's And charging "stuff". It's all over the internet ad nauseum.

If your looking for a smoking gun, it was the day a GM representative walked into a California legislature meeting and OPENLY announced that we should stop anything that wasn't Frankenplug. Obviously, they are quite robustly attempting the same in Europe.

My believe is a world of watered down compliance cars from reluctant manufacturers shouldn't be trying to stop those that do build EV's in mass. Pretty simple stuff.

 

[nozferatu]

I'm competing against Frankenplug, much like GM and German car makers are competing against CHAdeMO.

You present yourself as an advocate of EV's in general so the plug obsession is both irritating and baffling. The plug standards contest is really just a flea on the side of an elephant as far as obstacles to EV uptake go, but some of your many posts about it get so wound up and hostile that you end up sounding like a crank.

If you don't work for Nissan, or a plug supplier, why do you care so passionately about the plug? It's just a plug. What drives this level of energy? Did a malfunctioning CCS prototype electrocute your dog? To say "I'm competing against Frankenplug" implies a direct stake in the battle, not just a general desire to protect under-informed consumers. Honest discourse requires that if you do have a financial or career interest in the plug wars, you should disclose it.

Oberon,

Indeed...he's just a troll...ignore him. Eventually he'll crawl back under the rock he came out of. Dig a little deeper and I'd venture to say he probably does have ties to one particular company or some other thing.

There are more important things in life to worry about that whether SAE or CHAdeMO are adopted...he's a loser if he's so obsessed about it. In the meantime hopefully Spark EV owners here can keep talking about their cars without this dolt ruining it for everyone else.