DC fast charging: J1772 CCS vs CHAdeMO vs Supercharger, etc.

[ReddyKilowatt]

The three newest DC fast charge stations in Southern Oregon (Roseburg, Grants Pass, Medford, all Chargepoint stations) are all single-plug CCS Combo stations, which is why I asked. Granted the Rogue Valley, at around 200,000 people, is not a huge population area that needs DC fast charging every large parking lot, but the decision to put in a single CCS Combo plug seemed like a significant change.

 

[Nashco]

It's extremely surprising that these latest combo stations mentioned also don't seem to have a level 2 plug as well. This has always been the norm, and saved my ass in the earlier days with flakey Chademo chargers with my Leaf. Maybe this is a sign of more reliable chargers. Maybe it's a sign of not learning from the past.

Bryce

 

[nikwax]

Albany Oregon now has a CCS

 

[nikwax]

And Cottage Grove! That's Oregon's I5 corridor completed!

 

[Nashco]

So far a bunch of the southern Oregon/Northern CA ones don't have any confirmed CCS users (via Plugshare). If anybody has a chance to use them, it would be super helpful if you could update Plugshare. I'm itching for a road trip as the I-5 corridor is finally being populated in Northern CA as well, and some confirmed functioning units would be a big confidence booster!

Bryce

 

[NORTON]

..... I'm itching for a road trip as the I-5 corridor...
Bryce

Me too! And I need to do some coastal touring too. When I get that close to an ocean I have to do a ceremonial dip!

I may be working in Salem for a few weeks coming up and I'm considering renting this:https://turo.com/car-rental/portland/nissan-leaf/42010
I'll fly into PDX and uber to the Leaf, then ~60 miles to Salem, with available charging on the way!

I found turo when I saw a post somewhere about renting a Tesla

I can look for myself but;
Is this 'I-5 corridor' using combo DCFC stations?
How far north in to Washington can you go?
How close and how far can you go on the coastal roads?

I may play it safe and rent a cheap Prius C....

 

[nikwax]

we have plenty of ChaDeMo chargers in western Oregon and Washington, no problem doing the I5 corridor and the coast. And you want to see the coast here, it is world class.

 

[nikwax]

Hopefully we'll see a CCS midway between Portland and Seattle, that will really stick the I5 corridor together. Then maybe one between Seattle and Vancouver BC.

 

[ReddyKilowatt]

So far a bunch of the southern Oregon/Northern CA ones don't have any confirmed CCS users (via Plugshare). If anybody has a chance to use them, it would be super helpful if you could update Plugshare. I'm itching for a road trip as the I-5 corridor is finally being populated in Northern CA as well, and some confirmed functioning units would be a big confidence booster!

I tend to use Chargepoint rather than Plugshare, but I see the one at the Fred's nearest me in Medford has been updated. If I make it to Grants Pass soon I will update that one.

 

[nikwax]

We've added another CCS in Portland, this one is at the Lloyd Center shopping mall garage.

 

[cwerdna]

(From another thread)

The standard has nothing to do with it. Tesla made its own standard. And it's working just fine. The company just isn't that interested in perpetuating electric vehicles and isn't committed to the product as a whole.

It works fine for Tesla because they put a LOT of wood behind their arrow and are dead serious about EVs and dead serious about DC FCing them, as evidenced by their infrastructure build out and MANY other actions.

Yep, your latter statement is correct about GM.

You're confusing the company's decision making with a standard. No surprise there. No matter what standard one chooses or chose...initially those costs were high and any company would be fitting the bill for it. So cost isn't a reason either as that is fixed for any choice.

No, I'm not. GM is a backer of SAE Combo and as we've discussed ad nauseam, pulled political shenanigans in this area. If GM, the company decided to use other standards such as CHAdeMO or Tesla Supercharger, they'd suddenly have access to WAY more existing infrastructure.

If they chose CHAdeMO, they wouldn't necessarily have to contribute anything to build out its infrastructure (but it seems GM hasn't contributed anything in monetary or hardware form to build out Combo1 either). BMW sells the i3 in Japan w/CHAdeMO standard. It only went on sale recently. They were almost 2K CHAdeMO stations there when it became available. Did BMW contribute to build the infrastructure there? I dunno, but those almost 2K stations were there already.
...
Again, GM, the company deciding to contribute nothing to building out Combo1 standard infrastructure is also a company decision.

On this topic, the below news came out today.

GM Won't Fund CCS Fast-Charging Sites For 2017 Chevy Bolt EV
http://www.greencarreports.com/news/1101774_gm-wont-fund-ccs-fast-charging-sites-for-2017-chevy-bolt-ev

And we asked whether GM too would fund the expansion of a CCS quick-charging network to let Bolt EV buyers to travel beyond a 70- to 100-mile radius of their homes, where Chevy expects the bulk of recharging to be done.

The answers were swift and firm.

From CEO Mary Barra: "We are not actively working on providing infrastructure [for the Bolt EV]."

From electrification exec Pam Fletcher: "We believe all our customers should benefit from any infrastructure spending."

From http://www.chademo.com:
"The number of CHAdeMO DC Quick chargers installed up to today is 10353.
-- (Japan 5960 Europe 2755 USA 1530 Others 108) last update 2016.01.11"

Meanwhile, per http://www.mynissanleaf.com/viewtopic.php?p=447930#p447930:
"Tesla U.S. Supercharger # of states/locations/stalls as of 1/1/2015: 44/248/1,668."

 

[NORTON]

...."The number of CHAdeMO DC Quick chargers installed up to today is 10353.
-- (Japan 5960 Europe 2755 USA 1530 Others 108) last update 2016.01.11"...

That's nice for Chademo users. But here in America are there any new DCFC stations being installed that are not Combo CCS/Chademo?

Might as well get used to the fact that Japan has their DCFC system and the rest of the world went with CCS.

And then there is Tesla. They "don't play well with others.."
EDIT: If you want to charge your Tesla at an L2 or a Chademo you have leave your expensive Adapter Cord just hanging out there in the weather. Is it even locked into the port?

 

[nikwax]

But here in America are there any new DCFC stations being installed that are not Combo CCS/Chademo?


.

Yes, we're seeing CCS only charging stations being installed.

 

[NORTON]

Yes, we're seeing CCS only charging stations being installed.

That's as weird as the Proponents of Chademo saying CCS is wrong.
I would think all DCFC sites should serve both systems.
I guess a car dealership would only want their format.

 

[cwerdna]

Might as well get used to the fact that Japan has their DCFC system and the rest of the world went with CCS.

Totally untrue. CHAdeMO has a very large install base outside Japan.

With CCS, those folks created two physically incompatible plugs, see http://www.mychevysparkev.com/forum/viewtopic.php?p=5012#p5012. Combo1 aka SAE Combo is in North America. Combo2 is in Europe. CHAdeMO is a world standard.

TonyWilliams went thru the support or lack of from the various CCS folks at http://www.mynissanleaf.com/viewtopic.php?p=279363#p279363 and I posted an update at http://www.mynissanleaf.com/viewtopic.php?p=371615#p371615. Will need to update that.

The only serious player supporting CCS in the US is BMW. VW e-Golf sales are picking up but they decided to introduce a lower cost trim that doesn't include standard SAE Combo. (It was optional on the BMW i3 but has become standard w/2015 model year, IIRC.)

Spark EV sales are puny (sales figures at http://insideevs.com/monthly-plug-in-sales-scorecard/) and SAE Combo inlet is optional. And, as we saw, GM's unwilling to fund DC FC infrastructure build out.

The CCS folks (including GM) have tried to pull crap like what I listed at http://www.mychevysparkev.com/forum/viewtopic.php?p=4880#p4880 and trying to outlaw CHAdeMO in Europe.

And then there is Tesla. They "don't play well with others.."

They created a plug and standard that's better than either CHAdeMO and SAE Combo. See above about who's not playing well with others.

EDIT: If you want to charge your Tesla at an L2 or a Chademo you have leave your expensive Adapter Cord just hanging out there in the weather. Is it even locked into the port?

I suspect it's locked. Their free J1772 adapter is locked to their inlet. I see no reason why the CHAdeMO adapter wouldn't be either, esp. for safety reasons.

 

[xylhim]

Wow, are we really still having the charging standard discussion?

At this point, the topic is almost moot. Most new installations are dual standard, and there is now a continuous CCS/Chademo (actually a bit better for CSS in Nor Cal.) network from practically the Canadian boarder to the Mexican boarder along the West Coast. You can also do an Eastern Seaboard trip as well primarily on fast chargers, for either standard.

What we should be discussing is how expensive gas stations are to build in comparison to DCFC systems, and how they have to install completely separate tanks under the ground for the different grades of gasoline. With EV's, you use the same electricity, just a different connector/protocol. I really think now this isn't going to play out like the whole betamax/VHS debacle. We'll have multi-standard stations, which will actually work out well in the long run; it will end up being a selling point for certain models that have ports that are under-utilized. Let's say CCS cars hogging their public fast charge connectors too much, well, you'd be in the market for a CHAdeMO car, or visa-versa. It's actually an embedded way to keep many companies competitive with one another. Each will try to outdo each other for power delivery, ease of use, availability, etc.

Of course really, Tesla has a huge advantage with their superior placement and higher power output of the Superchargers, but hopefully the other guys will wake up and start competing like they should.

 

[nikwax]

Wow, are we really still having the charging standard discussion?

At this point, the topic is almost moot. Most new installations are dual standard, and there is now a continuous CCS/Chademo (actually a bit better for CSS in Nor Cal.) network from practically the Canadian boarder to the Mexican boarder along the West Coast. You can also do an Eastern Seaboard trip as well primarily on fast chargers, for either standard.

there is almost a West Coast CCS electric highway. There's a massive gap between Portland and Seattle, and I don't think you can get from Seattle to BC on CCS. But we're a lot closer than we were even a month ago

What we should be discussing is how expensive gas stations are to build in comparison to DCFC systems, and how they have to install completely separate tanks under the ground for the different grades of gasoline. With EV's, you use the same electricity, just a different connector/protocol. I really think now this isn't going to play out like the whole betamax/VHS debacle. We'll have multi-standard stations, which will actually work out well in the long run; it will end up being a selling point for certain models that have ports that are under-utilized. Let's say CCS cars hogging their public fast charge connectors too much, well, you'd be in the market for a CHAdeMO car, or visa-versa. It's actually an embedded way to keep many companies competitive with one another. Each will try to outdo each other for power delivery, ease of use, availability, etc.

Of course really, Tesla has a huge advantage with their superior placement and higher power output of the Superchargers, but hopefully the other guys will wake up and start competing like they should.

Totally agree with you, there is very little consideration given to the end to end costs of gasoline. Not to mention the soil mitigation that has to be done at old gas station sites, or that we have parts of the state of Oregon that don't have gas stations because it is so expensive to clean up the old ones, build new ones, and transport fuel to them. Whereas everyone has electricity available. heck, you can make your own electricity.

 

[cwerdna]

At this point, the topic is almost moot. Most new installations are dual standard...

BMW/VW is installing some 24 kW CCS only stations as part of: http://insideevs.com/bmw-ccs-rollout/.

 

[nikwax]

Looks like we got a fourth DCFC in Salem Oregon, all four are combo CCS and CHAdeMO.

 

[TonyWilliams]

At this point, the topic is almost moot. Most new installations are dual standard...

BMW/VW is installing some 24 kW CCS only stations as part of: http://insideevs.com/bmw-ccs-rollout/.

All of the CCS Combo1 only stations that are provided through the BMW / Volkswagen / ChargePoint agreement are produced in France and are only 20 to 25KW Max. These units are quite inexpensive and are subsidized at $6500 each, plus installation.

All the dual units that have both CCS and CHAdeMO under this agreement are produced in Australia by Tritium, and all are 50 kW.

They will put 100 units on both the East Coast and West Coast, as you are seeing now.

While 100 units may not seem like a lot when there are over 10,000 CHAdeMO stations in the world, it will certainly help with cars needing CCS charging.