Is 13.7kWh bad?

[BambinoPinguino]

Hello! First post here, hoping you all can help me while I'm hunting for a Spark.

Today I went to see a 2015 with about 30k miles. Unfortunately the dealership forgot to charge the car so it was at practically 0% when I arrived (2 miles on the GOM). First thing I did was check Torque Pro and the battery was at 13.7!!! The guy was actually very nice and apologetic about not charging it before I'd arrived. He said he'd leave it overnight and I can test drive tomorrow.

So my question is, does anyone think the capacity will increase after being fully charged? I've heard of the battery "re-balancing" after a full charge, and who knows how long this one has been empty. Maybe I'm wrong, but 13.7 kWh seems insanely low for only 30k miles, which makes me think that there is either something very wrong with the car, or it just REALLY needed a charge.

What kind of degradation can I expect at 13.7kWh? Is this normal for 30k miles? I looked in the "Questions and Data Tracking" thread and saw much more impressive numbers than 13.7, but maybe I'm overreacting.

I live in SoCal so weather is not a problem, but I wonder if I should keep looking to find one with a healthier battery.

Thanks for any help!

 

[DarthMuffin]

That does seem a little low, but perhaps the reading will get better after a few charge cycles? Like maybe they disconnected the battery for some reason (to detail the engine?).

Also remember it has the 8 year battery warranty. I've heard 65% is the magic number, and 65% of 19kWh is 12.35.

 

[NORTON]

... Unfortunately the dealership forgot to charge the car so it was at practically 0% when I arrived (2 miles on the GOM). First thing I did was check Torque Pro and the battery was at 13.7!!! The guy was actually very nice and apologetic about not charging it before I'd arrived. He said he'd leave it overnight and I can test drive tomorrow.....

I wouldn't put a lot of weight into that one data point.
But that dealership...... :roll:

They obviously don't have much interest in the car. Low Ball them big time. Show minimal interest.
And above all... don't believe a word they say.
You know how to tell when a used car salesman is lying, right?

IF, they bother to charge this EV to be able to sell it, (to full SOC, you want to see the blinking green light while it's plugged in),
when you go back, don't talk much.
Keep your word count at a minimum.
Tell them you want a long test drive. Drive it to <50% SOC at the very least. Do the math from the 'Energy Usage Page' in addition to the Torque reading.
Do this away from the sales dogs.
It is a Buyers Market.
Don't boggle their minds with tech numbers. The only number they care about is how much they can get from you.
They need you. They are not your friend. (Salesman, "Oh, your wife's name is Eleanor? My mother's name was Eleanor!") They are Dogs. :x

 

[Kermit]

In southern California you probably won't see that capacity number go up even after a full charge. It is rare that it goes up and in my experiences it is only when it is really hot. If the fully charged range looks like it will work for you it may be a good deal if the price is right. Check the energy history screen to see how it's been driven over the past 50 miles. Also check the trip odometer and take note of the average mi/kWh, this can also show you how hard the car was driven at least since the trip odometer has been reset. Like MRDrMorgan said drive it to 50 percent state of charge but keep track of the actual miles driven vs. the GOM. You can then see how efficient the car is for your driving style when you turn the car off (but before you open the door) as it will display on the odometer screen. Check to see if the tires are original or have been replaced and their condition, this can effect the range of the car slightly.

These cars are almost identical since there were only 2 options available so walking away from the deal should always be an easy option if something doesn't add up. Dealers do like to get the most money out of you so if you offer them a price that seems fair and they don't take it just leave them your number and tell them if they change their mind to call you.

In my opinion with the capacity as low as it is I would walk away IF the full charge GOM range was a concern for your uses OR the price is too high.

Are you willing to tell us how much the car is out the door?

For me I'm willing to pay $1k per year of use I can get out of a car. We bought ours for $11k taxes, title and insurance with 12k on it a year ago, so I hope to get another 11 years minimum out of this car. To get one here it had to be shipped here so my choices were limited to what Carvana had. The price you pay will probably be closer to $7-8k, because of the mileage and market. I'd hope towards the lower end of this if not lower with the battery capacity where it is.

Good luck!

 

[BambinoPinguino]

Thanks for the advice. I like the idea of taking an extended test drive. Possibly 100 miles if the dealer lets me, with a DCFC session when the battery gets low.

Unfortunately (for me) prices seem to be going up for Sparks in SoCal. This one is priced at $10k, but I'm also looking into a 2016 with 34k miles for a little under $9k.

Sidenote, does Torque Pro's battery capacity estimate easily translate to how many miles the car will go? As in, can I simply multiply an average mi/kWh to the capacity and get a good guess of how many miles the car can go? For example 13.7kWh x 4.3 mi/kWh = 58.91 miles vs a hypothetical car with a healthier battery like, 15.5kWh x 4.3 mi/kWh = 66.65 miles.

 

[MrDRMorgan]

Thanks for the advice. I like the idea of taking an extended test drive. Possibly 100 miles if the dealer lets me, with a DCFC session when the battery gets low.

Unfortunately (for me) prices seem to be going up for Sparks in SoCal. This one is priced at $10k, but I'm also looking into a 2016 with 34k miles for a little under $9k.

Sidenote, does Torque Pro's battery capacity estimate easily translate to how many miles the car will go? As in, can I simply multiply an average mi/kWh to the capacity and get a good guess of how many miles the car can go? For example 13.7kWh x 4.3 mi/kWh = 58.91 miles vs a hypothetical car with a healthier battery like, 15.5kWh x 4.3 mi/kWh = 66.65 miles.

I have a 2016 Spark EV with 30k miles on the ODO and have been driving this car for almost 4 years. Depending on where you live, how you drive and the conditions in which you are driving, your mi/kWh can vary widely. I live in Central California and, for most of the year, I use 5.0 mi/kWh as a minimum range estimate. But, currently, my full-charge GOM range has been running between 85 and 91 miles. On very cold winter mornings near freezing and with the heater on, it may be closer to 45 mi/kWh or lower but will slowly rise up to about 4.3 to 4.5 mi/kWh as the car warms up.

I would expect a 2016 Spark EV with 34K miles on the ODO and being driven in Southern California to have an average mi/kWh between 5.5 and 6.0 unless the previous driver had a heavy foot. LRR tires help too.

Be sure to have someone use TorquePro to measure the car's current battery capacity. My most recent measurement was 14.5 kWh. You may also want to have the 12 volt AGM battery replaced. Plan to spend around $200 for the battery.

 

[Kermit]

For that price you may consider going with one with fewer miles from Carvana. You can get a $500 discount code from someone on Reddit. If you are in a state that allows referrals and they are still allowing you to do it you can get $100 per referral (up to 10) so potentially you can get $1500 off your car if you can are able to get all the discounts.

 

[NORTON]

Thanks for the advice. I like the idea of taking an extended test drive. Possibly 100 miles if the dealer lets me, with a DCFC session when the battery gets low.
..... can I simply multiply an average mi/kWh to the capacity and get a good guess of how many miles the car can go? For example 13.7kWh x 4.3 mi/kWh = 58.91 miles ....

Good idea about testing the DCFC capability.
You'll need an account with the service provider. I'm sure the dealership doesn't have an ID card they can lend you on this test drive.
And don't ask. Tell them you are going to do a ~2 hour test drive.

(The 2 times my car had to be towed was after dying after a DCFC session. Stupid Chevy with their old fashion 'Trouble Tree' , it took 'Guess 3' to fix the problem. HPCM-2, the small box that handles DCFC functions, Duhh..)


As for 4.3kWh/mi,,, that totally depends on how you drive the car THAT day.

Fill it up with all the In-laws and the little car will be over gross weight, , then head up into the mountains, with the heat on, at 80 mph,, and no way 4.3 will be your number.

You don't want to baby the car on this test drive, do you? You want to see how it feels at 80 mph.
(Might as well touch the 90 limiter while you're so close! )
Be sure to punch it a few times! But have both hands on the wheel!!!

 

[BambinoPinguino]

Sorry I didn't get back to you all quickly, I've had a bit of a busy week.

So Saturday morning I read up on all of your advice again and went back to the dealer. They let me borrow the car for about 5 hours, but I only needed 3. Like Norton said, I wanted to push the car and get a real idea of what I could expect from owning it. When I got in the car, it was charged to full with 65 mi on the GOM and Torque Pro estimated 13.6 kWh (0.1 lower than the previous day). I had some fun with a few launches, then took it on the freeway (65 - 70 mph) for most of the test drive. First, I drove just over 40 miles at 4.4 mi/kWh then stopped at my place with 19 GOM miles left, using 9.4 kWh. I relaxed for about an hour and considered if ~65 miles would be good enough for me. Still conflicted, I got back in the car and stopped at a Chargepoint DCFC a few miles away. I loved my first charging experience, I bopped my phone against the screen, plugged in, and about 11 minutes later I was at 82% charge costing less than $2. I drove the car around some more, but I must have hit some headwind or elevation, because my efficiency dropped to 4.0mi/kWh. I got back to the dealer with 8 miles left in the car and a total of 87 miles driven.

In the end, unfortunately the battery was too degraded for my comfort. I know there are other Sparks out there I could shop for, and I know I can get better than 4.3 mi/kWh under the right circumstances, but I think after this drive I've begun to heavily consider stretching my budget and looking for a high mileage Bolt. I love the affordability and general charm of the Spark, but I've seen a few 2017 Bolt LTs for ~$18k and even some cheap Premiers that are very tempting.

Thanks so much for everyone's advice. Even if I don't buy a Spark, that lengthy test drive solidified my decision to drive electric. I'm glad the Spark was the EV that popped my cherry (sorry, best way I could put it haha)

 

[NORTON]

.... I think after this drive I've begun to heavily consider stretching my budget and looking for a high mileage Bolt. I love the affordability and general charm of the Spark, but I've seen a few 2017 Bolt LTs for ~$18k and even some cheap Premiers that are very tempting.
..... Even if I don't buy a Spark, that lengthy test drive solidified my decision to drive electric.....

First, congrats on you decision to drive electric. You'd still be an early adopter at this point,, imho.

And I'm with you all the way with spending a little more and getting a Bolt. (just note they all don't have the DCFC option.)
The whole 'range thing' is different when you have +200 miles on tap, daily. Although, there may be a tech reason not to charge the Bolt to 100% nightly. I wouldn't if, and when, I get one.

Dang it, now you got me looking at prices! :lol:

And unlike when I bought my Spark EV used, May 2015, 800 miles from my home, I wouldn't need to dolly it home. I could drive it home from a distant city, (most likely...).

 

[SparkE]

Around the SF Bay Area, used 2017 Bolts are going for $18K - $20K (35K - 75K miles).

2016 Spark EVs seem to be going for $8500-$10K (25K - 50K miles). Prices have gone up! (I got mine last year for $8.5K, with only 12K miles).

 

[BambinoPinguino]

Yep. I've also noticed prices rising as the months have passed. It was really frustrating to watch just as I was getting financially ready to buy x( Haha oh well, congrats on your vehicles' values increasing!

 

[SparkE]

Personally, I think that you did the right thing by passing on a "13.7 kWh" Spark EV. It's OK if it hits that after a few years, but you'd want to start out with a higher value. But then, I am a 2-car family, and when we need to drive far away we take the gasmobile. Even when (if) the Spark gets to 10 or 11 kWh capacity, it will still be very useful as the "around town" vehicle that we drive 75% of the time.

My next gas vehicle is going to be a plug-in hybrid.

 

[Kermit]

I think the prices are jumping due to Quebec offering a $4,000 rebate on USED electric vehicles. So if they can pick up a used Spark EV they can end up paying very little for a car.

 

[MrDRMorgan]

Personally, I think that you did the right thing by passing on a "13.7 kWh" Spark EV. It's OK if it hits that after a few years, but you'd want to start out with a higher value. But then, I am a 2-car family, and when we need to drive far away we take the gasmobile. Even when (if) the Spark gets to 10 or 11 kWh capacity, it will still be very useful as the "around town" vehicle that we drive 75% of the time.

My next gas vehicle is going to be a plug-in hybrid.

Before I ever drove a Spark EV, I drove a 1999 Chev Silverado pickup truck - still have it - and my wife drove a 2002 Honda Accord - gave it to our daughter. I had a very good idea of what our total annual driving mileage was and almost all of our driving was in town and within a 25 mile radius of our home. In May of 2015, Chevy's 3-year lease deal on a 2015 Spark EV 2LT with DCFC was too good to pass up. But, after just a few months of driving the 2015, I started looking for a used Spark EV. I found a 2014 2LT, without DCFC, and1500 miles on the ODO and bought it for about 50% of the original selling price. Then, a few months before the lease expired on the 2015 Spark EV, I found a 2016 2LT Spark EV with DCFC and bought it. We still have and drive both the 2014 and 2016.

The 2014 has been great around town. But, without DCFC, it is limited to local driving. The 2016 with DCFC has allowed us to venture out much further. But, even with DCFC, driving range is still limited by the availability of compatible DCFC charging stations. I started with EVgo and still have an active account. I also have active accounts with Electrify America and ChargePoint. Availability of compatible DCFC charging stations has really allowed us to venture out. But ….. there are still many places which are " locations too far". For those situations I just rent a car and go. And, I always have my trusty 21-year old pickup truck!

I too think the Spark EV will still be usable with a battery capacity of 10 to 11 kWh. Currently, the 2014 is 15.1 kWh and the 2016 is 14.5 kWh. At the last full charge, the GOM on each car read 90+ miles. Right now I am getting great miles / kWh in both cars.