Listen up Chevy! -- The official suggestion box...

[iletric]

I just discovered a huge problem with my Spark. This is something that should NEVER happen in any car, automatic, EV or ICE.

So, I arrived, stopped the car in my driveway, and with the lever in D turned the power off. It's a Leaf habit since the Leaf gear knob is all electronic unlike this dummy traditional lever in Spark, electronic as well but emulating traditional automatic. Power's off, so I let go of the brake.

And the car ROLLS!

I said, WHAT? That cannot be happening! I'm in "gear". No automatic or even a stick rolls like it's in neutral when in gear. I mean, Spark lever has an N position. That would be the only time it should roll. That's what it's for!

I tried it with L. Same result. Drive up, turn off power, let go of the brake, and the car rolls backwards. Yeah, there is that message, "put lever in Park." Thanks for the suggestion, Sparky. Tell that to the judge.

Chevy, this one calls for an immediate sofware fix before someone gets run over and killed. I kid you not. This is as dangerous as it gets. Spark driving off vista points, kids on tricycles run over in the driveways by their parents, driverless Sparks going down San Franciscto hills with the drivers tangled in seat belts hanging out the driver's door...

The scenarios are limitless. So are the lawsuits.

Go ahead, GM, pat me on the back.

 

[scotte]

Right, That's what Park is for. It's no surprise that the car would roll in Drive or Low - just like many automatics would do...

I also stupidly did this in our VW Jetta TDI/DSG once - pulled into a parking space on a hill and turned the car off without putting it in park while I had a quick lunch. Was eating in the car and it started rolling back. It was my fault - I didn't put the car in Park. Smacked myself in the head for being stupid, but had a good laugh and was happy I didn't hit anything. Same deal here. Basic personal responsibility - it's the driver's job to put the car in Park.

 

[iletric]

@scotte

You are right about the AT ICE cars in D. I just had to try it out since I've been driving stick for 30 years or more now and never really left gear in D. The car does roll in D and all other gears for that matter. It only makes sense if you lost power on the freeway in D. The car would come to a screetching halt.

However.

This is new tech. EVs are not your ATs. Nissan had the smarts to simplify the gear operation and it makes a whole lot of sense that the car won't move when you power it down. Anything else would be counterintuitive. I've been driving the Leaf for 2 years now so I have the knowhow on this. Leaf has N for towing, of course. It does have P as well. I use it only at long red lights to rest my foot, and when I'm waiting in the car and want AC and radio to operate. But once I arrive home I just power down and car locks the gear. It basically doubles as P. It feels very natural by now to to.

So, what GM did here is running a "you all stupid" racket and put in standard AT shifter so as not to confuse Joe sixpack, while pretending EV is just a regular car. Because, you see, Joe? It's got your P and R and N and D and the L which is actually grossly misleading because it should really read Eco. Even dealers don't know L is freeway speed with high regen. They'll learn fast, of course, they're in the business. But that's beyond our point here. GM could have easily follow the new EV paradigm. They chose not to. Honda Fit EV did the same thing with the key. You actually plug it in and turn it like you're starting an engine. Dumb as hell. They did however allow you to lock gear upon powerdown just like the Leaf. I guess, Leaf is the only car that got it right in both regards. I have not sat in Tesla yet, but I have a feeling Elon has it set up just right.

Thanks for your input.

 

[Blackmamba]

This is an exciting time in automobile history - we are in the frontier days of the big switchover from gas to electric, and you - Ilectric - are helping push the envelope. First with the Leaf, now with the Spark.

As one who is very keen on auto history and who loves watching this period of change we're now in, I'll be interested in following your experiences with your shift from Leaf to Spark. The Leaf already is old tech with flaws, but nonetheless is the sales leader for EVs. That can change - the Spark is new on the block, and has advances over the Leaf where it's most important - in its powertrain.

Let us know how your driving habits have changed between the two cars. How your comfort level regarding range has changed, etc.

 

[iletric]

@Blackmamba

Spark is going to be primarily for my college kid commuting 40 miles a day. We'll be using it for longer trips if the range holds up. I do expect 90 miles in L (Eco) mode.

I most likely won't see much battery degradation over 3 year 45,000 mile lease. But one never knows. Our Leaf is down from 73 to 65 mile range after 40,000 miles. We're lucky to be in the right temp zone since Leaf has no TMS (batt temp management).

Spark has A123 chemistry and TMS so we'll see how that'll hold up. Hopefully better than the A123 business did. I have not driven a Chevy in my life but we needed a commuter and I did not care for Honda Fit EV, even though I'm into Hondas. My 92 Accord has 470,000 miles. So Spark is the only game in town right now. So far, besides weird quirks like cruise control on the wrong side of the steering column, I'm alright with it. The only concern I have that it is very sensitive to side wind. I have to instruct my kid to watch out for windy conditions. It has flat sides, like sails for the wind to pry into. Otherwise I already got used to driving it. I must say though, I definitely like the Leaf displays better.

None of this cars proves to be a commuter for me, not yet at least. It's 84 miles. That's been the Accord's job - for too long now. I was hoping the Leaf 100-mile claim was going to pan out. The rest is history. I tried for 3 month, charged at work at L1 until the administrator found out and kicked me right out. Leaf is now wife/family car. We drive it as much as possible.

The EV experience is serene. No troubles, no fixings, no nothing. Plug in, unplug, drive.

I am waiting for Tesla's 35,000 dollar vehicle now. I don't care for Beemers or Benz all that much. And I have a feeling the price of both will be prohibitive.

 

[CopperRoad]

(this could be for a different thread... but just jumping off from the last topic)

For what it's worth I can tell you my driving habits. I have a 2013 Leaf SL. My girlfriend has the Spark EV. With the Spark EV you simple set it and forget it. With the my Leaf there are just too many drive options. You have D & B. You have Eco with B. Eco with D. (Not to mention.... ECO in the Leaf is the antithesis of fun & nimble, completely neutering all driving experience) All you do in the Spark is drop it in D and drive. I'm very happy that the car does not have a typical ECO mode, because D already seems perfectly tuned for optimal range. This seems refined.

Yes, low I suppose could be consider ECO. But it's not really dedicated for full time driving, the manual states....

Use L (Low) in heavy stop-and-go traffic or when traveling downhill. L (Low) requires less brake pedal application and provides a controlled, efficient way to slow the vehicle down.

As regen appears to be strong in L as it should be, I've grown quite fond of manually dropping it into L when coming to stops after coasting a bit.

Finally, the Spark EV range meter has taking the GOM moniker (almost) out of my vernacular. The range meter actual instills confidence. And shouldn't that really be its job.

Oh, I never mentioned Sport mode because I've only used it once or twice for short drives on the freeway without noticing any discernible difference. This is something I need to revisit.

 

[iletric]

I use cruise control for all my driving over 24 mph so even though I drive Spark exclusively in L I don't really feel the regen. I only have to deal with one pedal driving when I hit the brakes. My motto is, the more range miles the merrier, so L is it. I know D makes for more comfortable or conventional driving feel. The CC takes care of that 90% of the time. I am a CC freak, especially with EVs because they maintain the speed so beautifully. My wife hates it and will never use it. I, on the other hand, literally cannot live without it. My foot would rebel after an hour of driving. And if you're on 80 and don't watch it, you'll go 85 just exactly when you're on CHP radar. This way I never have to worry about watching my speed. Ever. I used to speed. Now I leave 10 minutes earlier and arrive in much better shape, mentally and physically. And on time. Using less fuel. For me it was one of those life's "no duh" discoveries that come with aging.

Now I only wish the stupid CC button was on the right side at 4 o'clock. These car companies are more concerned with the looks of those buttons, than their ergonomics. The on-off-set-resume buttons should not look the same and be lined up like equals, for example, because they're not. It's just plain dumb. The set and resume should be bigger, and shaped for frequent use/abuse. But that's a whole another subject altogether.

I would use Sport mode for steep hills. That's when it really comes in handy. I live on one like that and put Leaf's D to good use climbing it. We have 2011 Leaf so we have no B and all the other combos. Only D and Eco.

 

[CopperRoad]

The majority of my driving tends to be via surface streets. Not a lot of good CC usage in LA for that kind of driving unfortunately. But, we're heading to Palm Springs in a few week, and thinking about taking the Spark (stoping about 70mi into the 120mi trip to charge some) so that would be a prefect time to use the CC.

 

[SanDiego]

ilectric, I'd like to see the results of driving an identical route twice, in Cruise Control, at the same speed, first completely in L and then completely in D. What would the range difference be, if any? (We could compare notes if we both were to make such a test.)

I have two neighbors who are engineers (EE + Mechanical), who build hot electric bicycles and scooters (one is building a new commuter bicycle for himself using battery cells from a wrecked Leaf). They speculate, and I'm inclined to agree from my experience so far with the Spark, that as long as you don't hit the brakes hard enough to engage the brake pads/discs, it would make no difference in range whether you use L, D, Sport.

Somewhere I saw in a Chevy tech discussion that the only difference in Sport mode is the tip-in calibration of the "gas" pedal. I like your suggestion of using Sport down steep hills; I haven't tried that, but I will. It would make sense that L, D, and Sport are differentiated by the calibration of the tip-in, and also the degree of regen (and therefore of how much each position will slow the car down when you back off on the "gas" pedal).

While the engineers and I were test driving the car together, we realized that all three of us would use different combos of the above just by personal preference, and that my wife, just like CopperRoad's girlfriend, will just leave it in D. I just enjoy using L to pretend I'm really shifting again, and because it helps me avoid using the brake pedal at all until I need a complete stop, but when I'm cruising on the Interstate L feels completely unnatural to me (and CC rarely feels natural with the variability of our San Diego traffic).

I think it's cool that Chevy set it up so that different strokes essentially end up with the same result. If my wife just leaves it in D, she may be more likely to engage the discs, but maybe she would use the screen where you try to keep the green ball in the circle (or maybe that would drive her crazy); we also have a 2014 Mazda CX-5 (with ICE, of course), and I keep reminding myself that THAT vehicle is where the big savings are if we pay attention to the efficiency meter vs. the Spark which is hellishly efficient no matter what.

 

[iletric]

The Sport mode would be UP the hill not down as going down is perfect for regen in L. Sending in more power for uphill climb is just easier on the foot as the extra power remaps the accelerator. With the Leaf Eco to D lurches the car forward and it has much "easier" time to climb the hill. Same goes for Spark. So that's when I would use Sport. The other would be if I really need power to accelerate. In Marin we have one uphill onramp in Terra Linda where I use D pretty much every time, and it would call for D and Sport with Spark as well. Just to get me over 60 mph.

As far as a CC vs. no CC test, I think that I've read in Leaf forum long time ago that Leafers recommend CC for better range because without it one tends to speed up, slow down over and over, where you regen some when you slow down, and then waste more power to speed back up. With CC one gains speed stability and it ultimately improves the range somewhat. I'm sure it's not too dramatic. On the other hand speeding up way past say 67 mph actually lowers range significanly. So in theory if you set your speed at 64 mph you will never go 67 or more no matter what, and that translates to real range improvement. I watch my wife drive without CC, and she constantly goes from 60 to 70+ and back. 70 mph represents loss of range that would have never ocurred if the speed was locked in at 64. And that loss is not coming back.

 

[SanDiego]

I wasn't talking about a CC vs. no CC test. I know you're absolutely right that using CC is helpful if you can cruise at a steady speed and would otherwise needlessly accelerate & decelerate. I was talking about a test using CC in L and doing the exact same route with CC set to the same speed in D, to see if there was a difference in range/efficiency. I postulate that there would be no measurable difference.

As far as using Sport to accelerate up a ramp or a hill: We have a very steep mile long hill on the road leading to our house. I can blast up it in the Spark at 88 mph indicated whether I use Sport or not, and whether I use L or D, in any combination. Maybe I have to press physically harder on the gas pedal when I just use D and no Sport, but I can't detect that. (It's not my habit to test that too often because I'd like to keep my driver's license, but I can't go up that hill faster on my motorcycle or in any other car or truck I've had. The Spark really can turn it on.)

 

[scotte]

I spent a couple of days driving around in "L" instead of my usual "D" on my very consistent commute and I found that "L" is less efficient than "D" by roughly 0.5 miles/KWh or so. I think this is due to the inability to coast, which I do quite a bit on my city streets commute - I also found that I much prefer the driving experience of "D" to that of "L".

I regularly get 5.3-5.6 miles/KWh per trip, but with "L" I was at 4.9-5.1. The difference probably would not exist for freeway driving or when using the cruise control, but for city streets where coasting up to stop light and signs is possible it seems to adds up.

I think in the end you should use whatever mode suits your driving style and makes you a truly happy and complete person, but don't use "L" because you think it's more efficient - it's not...

 

[markcmann]

I think in the end you should use whatever mode suits your driving style and makes you a truly happy and complete person, but don't use "L" because you think it's more efficient - it's not...

Very interesting, thanks for the info. The only thing I would add is that 'L' mode is useful in regards to extending the life of the brake pads (mentioned by others in other posts) as in most cases you can coast to a stop and only apply the brakes to come to a complete stop; the rest of the time just lifting your foot off the accelerator is all that is required to slow the car enough in most traffic situations (freeway and city).

 

[iletric]

@ scotte

I cannot prove or disprove your assertion that D is more efficient than L. It is counterintuitive, though. I do agree that D makes for more convenient, less jerky driving than L.

At the same time, I do think that coming down a big hill at freeway speed you generate more juice in L than D. I am talking about Marin's 101 at Sausalito, going north, for example. I would hate to waste all that kinetic energy.

 

[Theo]

I spent a couple of days driving around in "L" instead of my usual "D" on my very consistent commute and I found that "L" is less efficient than "D" by roughly 0.5 miles/KWh or so. I think this is due to the inability to coast, which I do quite a bit on my city streets commute - I also found that I much prefer the driving experience of "D" to that of "L".

I regularly get 5.3-5.6 miles/KWh per trip, but with "L" I was at 4.9-5.1. The difference probably would not exist for freeway driving or when using the cruise control, but for city streets where coasting up to stop light and signs is possible it seems to adds up.

I think in the end you should use whatever mode suits your driving style and makes you a truly happy and complete person, but don't use "L" because you think it's more efficient - it's not...

I've experienced the same thing as scotte, haven't paid as much attention to the miles/KWh numbers, but the average is definitely higher when using "D" as it allows you to coast more. Energy will last longer if you don't spend it in the first place, as opposed to spending it and getting it back (inefficiencies will work against you in the long run). To get the best of both worlds, I've been experimenting with "D" for most of my driving, and putting it into "L" when getting off the freeway or needing to slow down from the speed I was going along at to a stop.