Looking for Spark EV battery and warranty information

[scrambler]

Hi,
With the recent acquisition of a used 2014 Spark EV with 57k miles, I am trying to evaluate the condition of its battery.

Searching the web, I found globally two different numbers about the supposed Usable capacity of that 21kWh battery.
One says the battery has 18.4kWh usable
another says 17.1kWh usable

Looking at the energy information reported on the energy screen for Total percentage of use (Driving + Climate + conditioning), and kWh used, I have had a couple of data points for mine.

79% for 13kWh which would mean a usable capacity of 16.46kWh
99% for 15.9kWh which would mean a usable capacity of 16.06kWh

This would mean that:
Worst case scenario (16kWh instead of 18.4kWh) it has a 13% degradation
Best case scenario (16.46kWh instead of 17.1kWh) it has only a 4% degradation

Based on this, I am looking for the following information.
1- Does anyone have a sure source for the official usable capacity of the 2014 Spark battery pack?
2- Can Spark owners share the data reported on their energy screen for Total percentage of use (Driving + Climate + Conditioning), and kWh used, so I can get a sense for the average capacity extrapolated from these numbers, but also how reliable that info is.
3- Is there a detail information of what amount of degradation is considered outside of the norm and would trigger the warranty? Has anyone tried to ask a dealership for that info?
4- Has anyone ever asked a dealership to perform an evaluation to see if their battery qualifies for warranty replacement? Is that even an accepted procedure?


Thank you for the help

 

[MrDRMorgan]

Hi,
With the recent acquisition of a used 2014 Spark EV with 57k miles, I am trying to evaluate the condition of its battery.

Searching the web, I found globally two different numbers about the supposed Usable capacity of that 21kWh battery.
One says the battery has 18.4kWh usable
another says 17.1kWh usable

Looking at the energy information reported on the energy screen for Total percentage of use (Driving + Climate + conditioning), and kWh used, I have had a couple of data points for mine.

79% for 13kWh which would mean a usable capacity of 16.46kWh
99% for 15.9kWh which would mean a usable capacity of 16.06kWh

This would mean that:
Worst case scenario (16kWh instead of 18.4kWh) it has a 13% degradation
Best case scenario (16.46kWh instead of 17.1kWh) it has only a 4% degradation

Based on this, I am looking for the following information.
1- Does anyone have a sure source for the official usable capacity of the 2014 Spark battery pack?
2- Can Spark owners share the data reported on their energy screen for Total percentage of use (Driving + Climate + Conditioning), and kWh used, so I can get a sense for the average capacity extrapolated from these numbers, but also how reliable that info is.
3- Is there a detail information of what amount of degradation is considered outside of the norm and would trigger the warranty? Has anyone tried to ask a dealership for that info?
4- Has anyone ever asked a dealership to perform an evaluation to see if their battery qualifies for warranty replacement? Is that even an accepted procedure?


Thank you for the help

The Electric Propulsion warranty is for 8 years or 100k miles. The Propulsion Battery Warranty policy states " Like all batteries, the amount of energy that the high voltage "propulsion" battery can store will decrease with time and miles driven. Depending on use, the battery may degrade as little as 10% to as much as 35% of capacity over the warranty period". It looks like you are well within the acceptable range of degradation. I hope my battery capacity will be as good as yours is at 57k miles.

18 months ago I purchased a used 2014 Spark EV 2LT with only 1500 miles on it and last March I started collecting battery capacity data from the energy information screen. Here is what I have collected so far:

2015
Aug 19.81 - ODO shows 1981 miles.

2016-17
Mar 18.94
Apr 18.74
May 18.81
Jun 18.90
Jul 18.64
Aug 18.67
Sep 18.50
Oct 18.09
Nov 18.12
Dec 18.07
Jan 17.91 - ODO shows 9061 miles.
Feb
Mar
Apr
May
Jun
Jul

I noticed an obvious drop in capacity up to about 7500 miles but now it seems the degradation has slowed down.

My 2015 Spark EV 2LT seems to be better. At 2422 miles my average battery capacity was 18.61 kWh for July and Aug in 2015. At 15092 miles my average battery capacity is 17.55 kWh for all of 2016 and Jan 2017.

 

[scrambler]

Thank you for the data it helps clarify a few things

It looks like the 18.4kWh usable capacity is the likely starting point, as you say you actually started with more than that. Bad news is it means my degradation is likely in the 13% range.

Good news, extrapolating the battery capacity from the % & kWh used numbers seems reliable as you have a clean progression.

With a 35% max authorized on the battery degradation over 100kmiles, at 60kmiles the range of acceptable degradation would be between 6% and 21% so I am right in the middle with 13%, so I have to live with the reduced range.

Will keep an eye on the evolution, but when plotting your data, I see no meaningful sign of a slowing down trend

I am somewhat surprised to see such a regular and significant degradation, compared to my experience with a Volt, which after 4 years shows no sign of degradation at all.
May be the volt has a larger SOC buffer, and is able to dig into it to compensate for any actual degradation.

 

[SparkevBlogspot]

recent acquisition of a used 2014 Spark EV with 57k miles

2014 has 21 kWh battery of which bit over 19 kWh was available. What DRMorgan gave you was 2015+ data.

79% for 13kWh which would mean a usable capacity of 16.46kWh

How are you measuring this? When I use DCFC, it almost always result in about mid 16 kWh. But when I charge to 100% and look at discharge to almost 20% (over 80% used) and average them, I get bit over 18 kWh. Doing a spot checks at about 50% mark, I get about 18.2 kWh (about 9.1 kWh used at 50%). You might try using a video camera to record % discharge from 100% screen and average multiple readings to get more accurate result.

If you're doing that and still only getting mid 16 kWh range, your degradation might be worse at about 1-16.5/19.5=15.4%

 

[NORTON]

...I am somewhat surprised to see such a regular and significant degradation, compared to my experience with a Volt, which after 4 years shows no sign of degradation at all.
May be the volt has a larger SOC buffer, and is able to dig into it to compensate for any actual degradation.

Of course the Volt battery experiences degradation-It's a Li-Ion battery.
It's just that the Volt doesn't offer the driver detailed data the way the Spark EV does. What ever the Volt is doing with it's GOM and buffer, it hides it all from the driver.

You have to plot your data and then average. I try to take a picture of the Energy page and the Odometer display. I need to start zeroing the trip odo at each start.
I have many dozens pictures that I have not inputted in my .xls yet,,, maybe some rainy day...

These are the columns:
Mileage- Date- % Used- kWh used- Present Capacity kWh- Temp- Trip Dist.- Trip mi./ kWh- % of Orig-Cap

I used 19.5kWh for my calc of % of Orig-Cap, which is wrong, I guess. Is there a manufacturer spec on this?

Here's a small kWh sample - 10/28/16 thru 12/14/16:
17.94
18.00
18.03
17.78
18.04
17.78
18.23
18.15
18.38
17.76
18.18

I only log >50% usage.
There will be a large gap in the data lately because I have started plugging in at home-L2 and at work-L1 (all day long) on for battery TMS reasons. It has been colder than a Wichi's Ta Ta here.
Each one way commute does not use >50% so I'm not bothering taking pictures. Should I still gather data at < 50%?

I could share this spread sheet template if anyone is interested.

 

[scrambler]

I used 19.5kWh for my calc of % of Orig-Cap, which is wrong, I guess. Is there a manufacturer spec on this?

I have not found any official spec, but most of the data I found referred to an 18.4 kWh usable.

Here's a small kWh sample - 10/28/16 thru 12/14/16:
17.94
18.00
18.03
17.78
18.04
17.78
18.23
18.15
18.38
17.76
18.18

That is a pretty solid 18kWh average, I wish I had that

I only log >50% usage.
There will be a large gap in the data lately because I have started plugging in at home-L2 and at work-L1 (all day long) on for battery TMS reasons. It has been colder than a Wichi's Ta Ta here.
Each one way commute does not use >50% so I'm not bothering taking pictures. Should I still gather data at < 50%?

It would be good to try for a while, keeping them separate, to see if the data gathered under 50% used is the same as the one gathered over 50%, If it turns out to be the same, then it means the reported usage number are reliable across the whole range from zero to 100%.

 

[MrDRMorgan]

recent acquisition of a used 2014 Spark EV with 57k miles

2014 has 21 kWh battery of which bit over 19 kWh was available. What DRMorgan gave you was 2015+ data.

79% for 13kWh which would mean a usable capacity of 16.46kWh

How are you measuring this? When I use DCFC, it almost always result in about mid 16 kWh. But when I charge to 100% and look at discharge to almost 20% (over 80% used) and average them, I get bit over 18 kWh. Doing a spot checks at about 50% mark, I get about 18.2 kWh (about 9.1 kWh used at 50%). You might try using a video camera to record % discharge from 100% screen and average multiple readings to get more accurate result.

If you're doing that and still only getting mid 16 kWh range, your degradation might be worse at about 1-16.5/19.5=15.4%

All of my data was taken using a Bosch Powermax L2 EVSE to charge the vehicle. I tried to gather DCFC data but I was never sure if the DCFC reading was what went into the car or just the total power consumed by the DCFC and the car. In many cases it took too long to get a full enough charge to reset the Energy Information screen if it reset at all. Most of my data is taken with the GOM showing about 50% remaining. -DRM

 

[MrDRMorgan]

recent acquisition of a used 2014 Spark EV with 57k miles

2014 has 21 kWh battery of which bit over 19 kWh was available. What DRMorgan gave you was 2015+ data.

79% for 13kWh which would mean a usable capacity of 16.46kWh

How are you measuring this? When I use DCFC, it almost always result in about mid 16 kWh. But when I charge to 100% and look at discharge to almost 20% (over 80% used) and average them, I get bit over 18 kWh. Doing a spot checks at about 50% mark, I get about 18.2 kWh (about 9.1 kWh used at 50%). You might try using a video camera to record % discharge from 100% screen and average multiple readings to get more accurate result.

If you're doing that and still only getting mid 16 kWh range, your degradation might be worse at about 1-16.5/19.5=15.4%

NOTE: At the end of August 2015, at the 1900 mile mark, My 2014 Spark EV 2LT data for 4 charging sessions averaged 19.81 kWh. At the end of August 2015, at the 2400 mile mark, My 2015 Spark EV 2LT data for 11 charging sessions averaged 18.61 kWh. -DRM

 

[scrambler]

To MrDRMorgan and SparkevBlogspot, let us not confused kWh put in (measured during the Charging stage) and kWh used (as reported by the energy screen when the battery is depleted).
The Energy put in will be bigger than the usable capacity by a couple of kWh due to charging losses. And these will vary depending on your installation.
If it takes 19.5kWh to fully charge, that would mean only 17.5 to 18.5 kWh actually get in the battery.

For degradation, I am only interested at what the car was able to use, so only the capacity extrapolated from the energy screen numbers (total % used and matching kWh used)

For reference, I found the article below
http://gm-volt.com/2013/08/02/spark-ev-versus-volt-battery/

That has a data comparison for the batteries
http://gm-volt.com/wp-content/uploads/2013/08/Slide5.jpg

This says the 2014 battery has 17.3 kWh usable capacity out of a 21.4 kWh pack.

If that is true, then the fact that in the early days of the car, Norton got higher numbers when extrapolating the energy screen values, would mean the energy screen numbers are not 100% accurate.
Never the less, even if they are not 100% accurate, they seem to show a consistent trend, so whatever error they contain may always be the same, and so the trend they report would still be relevant.

 

[MrDRMorgan]

To MrDRMorgan and SparkevBlogspot, let us not confused kWh put in (measured during the Charging stage) and kWh used (as reported by the energy screen when the battery is depleted).
The Energy put in will be bigger than the usable capacity by a couple of kWh due to charging losses. And these will vary depending on your installation.
If it takes 19.5kWh to fully charge, that would mean only 17.5 to 18.5 kWh actually get in the battery.

For degradation, I am only interested at what the car was able to use, so only the capacity extrapolated from the energy screen numbers (total % used and matching kWh used)

For reference, I found the article below
http://gm-volt.com/2013/08/02/spark-ev-versus-volt-battery/

That has a data comparison for the batteries
http://gm-volt.com/wp-content/uploads/2013/08/Slide5.jpg

This says the 2014 battery has 17.3 kWh usable capacity out of a 21.4 kWh pack.

If that is true, then the fact that in the early days of the car, Norton got higher numbers when extrapolating the energy screen values, would mean the energy screen numbers are not 100% accurate.
Never the less, even if they are not 100% accurate, they seem to show a consistent trend, so whatever error they contain may always be the same, and so the trend they report would still be relevant.

I am well aware of the charging losses. All of my data presented above was taken off of the Energy Info screen in both of my Spark EVs. -DRM

 

[SparkevBlogspot]

let us not confused kWh put in (measured during the Charging stage) and kWh used (as reported by the energy screen when the battery is depleted).

That is correct. I bring up DCFC, because that's one way to estimate capacity if you assume some losses. DCFC should give you more optimistic figure, yet it consistently shows less. As mentioned, I get mid 16 kWh.

But when I charge to 100% using L1 or L2, then monitor % used vs kWh used since last full charge in energy use screen, I get bit over 18 kWh now. Mine is 2015, almost 2 years old, 17K miles. Due to insufficient significant figures, you have to take lots of readings and average them and use up lots of battery.

2014 having only 17.3 kWh doesn't make sense. Tony Williams did a range test, and he got 98 miles at 62 MPH with 5 mi/kWh efficiency. 98/5 = 19.6 kWh. While it's possible there's variation from car to car, it shouldn't be over 2 kWh different.

 

[MrDRMorgan]

Due to insufficient significant figures, you have to take lots of readings and average them and use up lots of battery.

I agree. My data represents 87 charging sessions for my 2014 Spark EV and 95 charging sessions for my 2015 Spark EV - all L2 EVSE. - DRM

Question: Does anyone know if the 12 power used to power the lights and other 12 volt car electronics is included in the "driving" percentage and kWh used on the Energy Information screen? I know the 12 volt battery is recharged from the high voltage traction battery.

 

[Planerench]

If you spend anytime on the Leaf forum you will find several stories of degraded batteries on the Nissan product. I have to ask, has anyone had a warranty battery replacement on the Spark EV? I searched Google and came up empty. In fact, Shark Ev reliability seems quite high.

 

[MrDRMorgan]

If you spend anytime on the Leaf forum you will find several stories of degraded batteries on the Nissan product. I have to ask, has anyone had a warranty battery replacement on the Spark EV? I searched Google and came up empty. In fact, Shark Ev reliability seems quite high.

I have not seen a single post regarding failure of the HV battery but there have been a few posts where some degree of HV battery degradation seemed to be evident. There have been a few Spark EVs where the cars died as a result of failure of the 12 volt AGM battery.

You may want to get a copy of the Limited Warranty and Owner Assistance Information booklet. The HV battery warranty is for 8 years or 100K miles. During that 8 year time period, "normal" HV battery degradation may be as little as 10% up to a maximum of 35%. If the HV battery needs to be replaced, "it will be replaced with either a new or factory reconditioned battery with an energy capacity at or within approximately 10% of that of the original battery at the time of warranty repair."

 

[Planerench]

I was wondering if there had been a traction battery failure or warranty claim for degradation. One would expect a Google search to show at least a lemon or manufacturer failure of some kind. The lack of any such story is very encouraging. My battery seems a little on the low side but it will give many years of service at this rate.

 

[MrDRMorgan]

I was wondering if there had been a traction battery failure or warranty claim for degradation. One would expect a Google search to show at least a lemon or manufacturer failure of some kind. The lack of any such story is very encouraging. My battery seems a little on the low side but it will give many years of service at this rate.

How are you determining that your battery may be "a little on the low side"? The usual test is to fully charge the car, drive it for about 40 miles, push the leaf button on the dash, read the %used and kWh used, and then divide the kWh used by the percent (expressed as a decimal) used to get an estimate of the HV battery capacity. I have found this number varies a bit. Averaging a number of tests will give you a better result. For the first 5 months of 2017, my 2014 Spark EV averaged around 18 kWh and my 2017 averaged around 17.5 kWh.

I did try to get better accuracy by fully charging the car and then driving for 20 miles in D, without stopping, with the cruise control set to 55 mph and no head or tail winds. At the end of 20 miles, I recorded the capacity used and the number of kWh used and calculated my HV battery capacity. It still came in at about 17.5 kWh. The road I used was relatively flat so there was no up or downhill influence and I did not use the brakes so regeneration was not an influencing factor.

During the summer and early fall, with almost all of my driving at 35-45 mph, my full-charge GOM range is 95 - 102 for my 2015 Spark EV and 100-113 for my 2014 Spark EV. Charts I made over the last 2.5 years does show a little HV battery degradation for both vehicles. But, after the first year or so, it leveled off and has remained relatively flat.

Today, I do not pay much attention to the HV battery capacity calculation. Instead, I watch my full-charge range estimate which I know is affected by a number of variables. But, I collected sufficient data over the previous 2 years to get a good idea of what full-charge range I should expect for each month of the year.

 

[Planerench]

My 2014 runs about 16.5. Pretty consistent. I was hoping for more but as long as it is stable I should be OK

 

[MrDRMorgan]

My 2014 runs about 16.5. Pretty consistent. I was hoping for more but as long as it is stable I should be OK

What do you typically see on your GOM [blue ball] after a full charge? For my 2014, I see 105 to 110 miles in the late spring through summer. Use of the AC can drop that number by 10 - 15 miles. My lowest readings come in DEC to FEB where my range drops to around 75 miles. I do make use of the heater in the winter.

 

[Planerench]

The day I had the update performed at the dealership I fully charged at home because for the first few minutes the Battery charge indicator showed three bars remaining. That day I had 100 miles showing. It was the highest I had ever seen. 80 ish is pretty consistent. I have snow tires on right now, my commute is 18 miles of unhindered freeway, and I am paying attention to the capacity and miles per kw as a result. I regret I have not yet had a period to establish a good baseline. I installed the snow tires within a week of getting the car. After last winter (nicknamed snowmageddeon by the locals) I was not going to risk winter driving on Ecopias!

 

[MrDRMorgan]

The day I had the update performed at the dealership I fully charged at home because for the first few minutes the Battery charge indicator showed three bars remaining. That day I had 100 miles showing. It was the highest I had ever seen. 80 ish is pretty consistent. I have snow tires on right now, my commute is 18 miles of unhindered freeway, and I am paying attention to the capacity and miles per kw as a result. I regret I have not yet had a period to establish a good baseline. I installed the snow tires within a week of getting the car. After last winter (nicknamed snowmageddeon by the locals) I was not going to risk winter driving on Ecopias!

My son lives in Meridian, ID so I have a good idea of your driving conditions. I would suggest keeping notes of your full-charge range for every charging session, which tires you have on the car, use of the heater, etc. so, later, you can review the information and see how environmental conditions affect your range. Spark EV drivers operating a Spark EV in similar conditions may be able to give you more appropriate data.

I still have the factory Ecopias on my three Spark EVs and my winter driving conditions may be cold but I do not experience snow or ice conditions like you do. Still, I see about a 25 mile drop in range due mainly to cold [30s] weather and use of the heater. Preheating the car while it is connected to an L2 EVSE will help reduce the temperature impact. I have seen the mi / kWh on my display drop well below 3.0 when I first start out on cold mornings with temperatures around freezing and the heater is running at maximum current because I did not pre-heated the car while connected to my L2 EVSE. It takes a while for the cabin to warm up and the mi / kWh starts to rise above 3.0.