Replacement battery cost

[SparkevBlogspot]

I'm voting for the GM model to be the best EV battery system.
Tesla uses +7000 small cylindrical stainless steel can, 18650 size laptop cells, but at least liquid cools them.

+1 on GM. Cooling on 2014 (bottom plate like Bolt) is different than 2015 (slot between "pouches" like Volt), but the result is being able to charge very fast, almost 2.5C to 80%! In contrast, Tesla tops out at 2C with 120kW for S60 (1.3C with S90), and only for short time before severe taper takes effect. The end result is that SparkEV with less taper and higher operating efficiency is "pretty close" to Tesla even with 50kW chargers.

Nissan said, "Ta'hell with TMS".

VW eGolf also lacks cooling. I think those two are only ones that lack active battery cooling.

 

[oilerlord]

Isn't there a law about supporting a product for at least 10 years for the auto industry?

I'm sure that buyers of the RAV4 EV could use one. Those brave early adopters have trouble getting warranty service outside of California, and even WITH warranty coverage sometimes have their cars waiting in the shop for a month or more for Tesla-supplied replacement parts. Toyota heralded the RAV4 EV as the future, and though the concept of a RAV 4 with a Tesla powertrain looked like a sure winner, the result was a disappointment. In a few short years, the RAV4 EV is extinct and Toyota pretends like it never happened.

With the soon-to-be released Bolt, the Spark EV may suffer the same fate. As I mentioned earlier; the fact that a GM dealership (that has a deal for a 2014 Spark EV pending with me) can't provide a price on a critical replacement part for the car, is pretty telling that GM may soon end support for the car. This is probably the reason that dealers are practically giving the cars away.

As much as I want to buy a Spark EV, I can't wrap my head around 100% depreciation; and not being able to service the car post-warranty no matter how low dealers are willing to sell them for. I should just buy a used Volt and call it a day.

 

[oilerlord]

By coincidence, my local GM dealer called me back with a part number (19119741). There are two high voltage batteries listed - one is $11,800 (P/N 23176402), and the other is over $20,000 (P/N 19119741). Both part numbers read as identical high voltage batteries, for the 2014 Spark EV, but the parts manager is calling me back to with more details. I'll post as soon as I have that information, but I'm guessing one assumes exchanging the old battery pack and the other does not. For now, we know that the high voltage battery exchange will, at the very least, cost over $12,000.

http://www.wholesalegmpartsonline.com/showAssembly.aspx?ukey_product=0&ukey_assembly=1276474&ukey_make=1024&modelYear=2014&ukey_model=20291&ukey_driveline=11475&ukey_trimLevel=25503

GM also has a technical document regarding the battery exchange process (PIP5112G). It looks like the labor to replace the battery is ~$500. Clearly, the high cost of replacing the battery is the dirty little secret that the salesperson (that wants to sell me a 2014 Spark EV) didn't want to share with me. Because I'm not leasing the car, and was planning on keeping it for the long term, this discovery is a deal breaker.

 

[NORTON]

... one is $11,800 (P/N 23176402), and the other is over $20,000 (P/N 19119741). ...
.... It looks like the labor to replace the battery is ~$500.
.... is the dirty little secret that the salesperson (that wants to sell me a 2014 Spark EV) didn't want to share with me.
.... this discovery is a deal breaker.

OK, in 2022 these prices will still be current.

And batteries die a sudden death.

And I believe you give any salesperson WAY too much credit. Do you really think any car sales person knows anything, especially what happens in 8 years?
They would much rather sell you a pick up truck, and "if you'll come into my office we can work up a deal !"

The deal is done.

(This sounds exactly like what people were talking about when the Prius and Insight were new.)

 

[oilerlord]

OK, in 2022 these prices will still be current.

Perhaps, perhaps not. Keep in mind that the 2014 Spark EV is a limited production compliance car, and only ~3000 were produced so for that reason, it makes sense that the battery replacement costs $12K. Comparatively, it also makes sense that with over 170,000 Nissan Leafs sold that volume suggests the battery should be lower cost - and it is - around $5500.

As for your comment about "sounding" like people discussing the Prius - millions of Prius's have been sold...there will always be only ~3000 Spark EV's with the A123 systems 21kWh battery in the world. This isn't an opinion about one car being necessarily "better" than the other, only that the Prius has reached economy of scale, the Spark EV has not. This is why replacement batteries for both the Nissan Leaf and Toyota Prius are comparatively cheap.

I'm guessing that by 2022 the price will remain more or less the same, but who knows...in 2022, Spark EV batteries may not even be available.

 

[Nashco]

In 2022, there will definitely be Spark EV batteries available. GM will have a stash that they squirreled away for warranty requirements that nobody needed, and they'll probably be for sale for pennies on the dollar.

Meanwhile, those who need a battery not covered under warranty (for example, a car that was in an accident), it will be very easy to rebuild the battery as necessary. If the cells fail, the A124 cells have been quite easy to get in any cell count through gray market channels for a long while already. Wrecked cars in scrap yards will also have complete pack assemblies available. LG cells will be even easier. If a BMS, contractor, sensor, etc goes bad those will all be available through many channels in either wrecked cars or new replacement parts that are used in many EVs. There won't be any part which can break on an otherwise fine car that will be unavailable in either normal aftermarket or used parts sources.

As was mentioned, this was the same concern people had a decade ago for cars like the first Prius and Insight. Even though these cars were sold in low volumes, their parts were used on many vehicles over the years, and between aftermarket and used parts sources, there are plenty of realistically priced options for maintaining these out-of-warranty cars.

Bryce

 

[SparkevBlogspot]

this discovery is a deal breaker

Something to consider is what price are you willing to pay to fix 8+ year old EV? At that time, there will be lots of 200+ miles range EV, both new and used. In addition, there will be lots of similar age Elantras and Corollas at about $5000. Using that as my maximum "repair bill", I assumed any repair that cost more will result in car being junked. Going into SparkEV after Prius battery died (ie, junked), I assumed that it'd be junk after 10 years, which was my first blog post.

http://sparkev.blogspot.com/2015/05/first-of-all.html

Now if it can be fixed for $5000, that's all the better, though I'm not sure if I'll actually do it. Given that it's rare first EV by GM (no one could own EV1), and 0-60 is quicker than anything in its class, I might actually do it if the price is in that range; it'd be like fixing a classic / collector's car.

That price might be a possibility with 2015 (may or may not be able to use Volt batteries, no guarantee), but I don't know about 2014's A123. Unless Chevy makes special mod for 2014 model, I don't see the price going down. I don't see Chevy making special mod to use LG batteries; they probably rather have you pay for "new" car. You may be able to find "rebuilt" or "junk car" batteries, but based on my Prius experience, that will be sketchy at best. Again, how much would you pay to fix a 10+ year old car?

Looking at other EV like Leaf, etc. Their batteries may be cheaper, but they will also be competing against 200+ miles range EV. Would you spend $6000 to fix 10 year old EV that gets 1/3 the range, especially one that's as slow as Leaf? Even at $3000, I probably wouldn't for something so common and low performing.

As for Volt, it suffers from same problem as Prius; it's another slow hybrid, very common, new battery will cost much more than comparable used car (or 3.25 years of new SparkEV lease in my case), and most importantly, you also have to worry about 10+ year old gas engine. Often the claim is that gas engine isn't used much, but the belts, etc. still age; old is old (very insightful, no? ;-) ) Unlike Volt, SparkEV has the distinction in being rare first GM EV and quick performance.

I just saw Bryce post; Prius battery was about $12K back in 2002, now they are $2500 parts + $1000 labor (new from factory). While we can't know if that will also reflect SparkEV, I suspect the price may go down, especially for LG battery. Bryce also has a point about Chevy needing to dump old stock, but if the A123 stock is gone, it's gone whereas there could be far more LG available (again, assuming Volt cells can be used). As for rebuild, my experience with Prius was sketchy; I don't know if I'd trust them to have correctly matched the cells.

It's all a risk with today's EV. It's best is to assume junk car after warranty expires, anything more is just unexpected bonus. Today's EV are like computers.

 

[SparkevBlogspot]

Searching for ACDelco #19119741, it shows $28125 at Tonkin Chevy in OR.

http://www.tonkinonlineparts.com/showAssembly.aspx?ukey_assembly=1283907&ukey_make=1086&ukey_model=20368&ukey_category=22550

Battery cost more than the entire car?!?! Price will have to come down or some lawyers could become busy.

 

[MrDRMorgan]

What I haven't seen is any information about whether a 2015 Spark EV battery pack will bolt up / hook up without modifications into a 2014 Spark EV? I would think the outer dimensions, anchor points and electrical / cooling connections of the battery packs, regardless of what is inside, would be the same since the car's body is the same. This should also apply to the 2016 Spark EV for the same reason. If this is possible, then possibly only a software update would be required. I actually would like to see a 30kWh battery in the same package that could be dropped into my car and, with a software upgrade, give me a 150 mile range.

The limited warranty book that came with the car suggests a 2015 Spark EV owner could see as little as 10% and as much as 35% battery capacity degradation over the warranty period. Owners of a 2014 Spark EV should be approaching 2 years of use. What have you see as far as range degradation (battery capacity) goes?

If the Koch brothers get wind of this issue, they will have all they need to kill EVs - fear of the unknown battery life.

 

[NORTON]

.....The limited warranty book that came with the car suggests a 2015 Spark EV owner could see as little as 10% and as much as 35% battery capacity degradation over the warranty period. ....

Dang, I should RTFM.
How exactly does one quantify the level of battery degradation?

 

[MrDRMorgan]

.....The limited warranty book that came with the car suggests a 2015 Spark EV owner could see as little as 10% and as much as 35% battery capacity degradation over the warranty period. ....

Dang, I should RTFM.
How exactly does one quantify the level of battery degradation?

The only measurement I have is the maximum range on the guess-o-meter after a full overnight charge. I get my best range when the outside temperature is in the high 60s or low 70s with both my 2014 and 2015 Spark EVs repeatedly giving me about 103-106 miles. If I assume the battery doesn't degrade with use, then, everything else being equal, I should see the same range values for the same weather temperature range each year. If the battery starts losing capacity, the guess-o-meter range number after a full overnight charge should drop too. If the degradation is only 1.25% a year (10% over 8 years), I will not notice the change for a few years. However, if it is 4.38% per year (35% over 8 years), that should be very noticeable within the first year or two. Currently, my 2014 Spark EV (4700 miles on the odometer) is already giving me 104 miles and my 2015 Spark EV (7900 miles on the odometer) is already giving me 100 miles. Any other ideas?

 

[Dusty]

The limited warranty book that came with the car suggests a 2015 Spark EV owner could see as little as 10% and as much as 35% battery capacity degradation over the warranty period. Owners of a 2014 Spark EV should be approaching 2 years of use. What have you see as far as range degradation (battery capacity) goes?

I called the dealer yesterday for the "limited warranty details" missing from either of our 2015 Spark EVs paperwork. They shuttled me off to someone who wasn't there and couldn't return my message. Maybe I'll hear from them today....

Assuming your paperwork is correct, this isn't too bad. A 10%-35% degradation range indicates they expect only a 20% loss after eight years/100,000 miles. You're getting 100+ miles now which means 80 miles per charge at the end of your warranty. If this is straight-line depreciation, after 16 years we're talking a 60 mile range. By then the rest of the car will be essentially worthless with all sorts of other problems creeping into the picture, i.e. struts, brakes, motor bearings, planetary gearbox, wiring snafus, upholstery, etc. It seems the engineers at GM expect the battery to outlast the rest of the car.

But suppose you're one of the unlucky people to have only a 60% battery before 8/100K. GM isn't going to put a new battery into your car. By then there should be plenty of used or #2(B) batteries laying about from crashes/manufacturing defects that they'll probably just replace your old 60% battery with a 75% battery. That would satisfy the warranty. (Or, if they're devious about it, they could just patch the software to allow more of the battery capacity to be used between cycles, providing the illusion of normal range. They'd never do that, would they?)

Those who keep their Spark EVs long past the warranty expiration will have a couple good options when the range eventually becomes too short. The batteries themselves should still have lots of value even with a 50% capacity. We've never had a time when tens of thousands of high-capacity batteries came onto the market via auto salvage, and it's hard for me to imagine all the possibilities. Perhaps a couple tied into a solar array letting people go off-grid? Or maybe the utilities will buy them up to store excess energy between peak generation?

Or just sell it. A car with 10 airbags and a 40 mile range is pretty ideal as a first car for a high-schooler or community college commuter. No Joy-riding!

 

[NORTON]

....I called the dealer yesterday for the "limited warranty details" missing from either of our 2015 Spark EVs paperwork. They shuttled me off to someone who wasn't there and couldn't return my message. Maybe I'll hear from them today....
....Or just sell it. A car with 10 airbags and a 40 mile range is pretty ideal as a first car for a high-schooler or community college commuter. No Joy-riding!

For all you worrywarts, I would think calling a car salesman is the least effective way of gathering truthful information. Come on..... This sort of thing would have to come from corporate.

And the second part is so true! This car will still be useful for some as a 40 mile range EV in 10 years. And still a hoot to drive!

Relax, worry about space rocks.

 

[MrDRMorgan]

The limited warranty book that came with the car suggests a 2015 Spark EV owner could see as little as 10% and as much as 35% battery capacity degradation over the warranty period. Owners of a 2014 Spark EV should be approaching 2 years of use. What have you see as far as range degradation (battery capacity) goes?

I called the dealer yesterday for the "limited warranty details" missing from either of our 2015 Spark EVs paperwork. They shuttled me off to someone who wasn't there and couldn't return my message. Maybe I'll hear from them today....

Assuming your paperwork is correct, this isn't too bad. A 10%-35% degradation range indicates they expect only a 20% loss after eight years/100,000 miles. You're getting 100+ miles now which means 80 miles per charge at the end of your warranty. If this is straight-line depreciation, after 16 years we're talking a 60 mile range. By then the rest of the car will be essentially worthless with all sorts of other problems creeping into the picture, i.e. struts, brakes, motor bearings, planetary gearbox, wiring snafus, upholstery, etc. It seems the engineers at GM expect the battery to outlast the rest of the car.

But suppose you're one of the unlucky people to have only a 60% battery before 8/100K. GM isn't going to put a new battery into your car. By then there should be plenty of used or #2(B) batteries laying about from crashes/manufacturing defects that they'll probably just replace your old 60% battery with a 75% battery. That would satisfy the warranty. (Or, if they're devious about it, they could just patch the software to allow more of the battery capacity to be used between cycles, providing the illusion of normal range. They'd never do that, would they?)

Those who keep their Spark EVs long past the warranty expiration will have a couple good options when the range eventually becomes too short. The batteries themselves should still have lots of value even with a 50% capacity. We've never had a time when tens of thousands of high-capacity batteries came onto the market via auto salvage, and it's hard for me to imagine all the possibilities. Perhaps a couple tied into a solar array letting people go off-grid? Or maybe the utilities will buy them up to store excess energy between peak generation?

Or just sell it. A car with 10 airbags and a 40 mile range is pretty ideal as a first car for a high-schooler or community college commuter. No Joy-riding!

The battery capacity degradation values are right out of the New Vehicle Limited Warranty booklet, page 14, that I received with my 2015 Spark EV 2LT. It states further under the section Replace (If Necessary), "If warranty repair requires replacement, the high voltage battery may be replaced with either a new or factory reconditioned high voltage battery with an energy capacity (kWh storage) level at or within approximately 10% of that of the original battery at the time of warranty repair. Your Electric Propulsion battery warranty replacement may not return your vehicle to an "as new" condition, but it will make your Spark EV fully operational appropriate to its age and mileage."

I agree with your analysis above. After a full night of L1 EVSE charging at 8 amps, this morning my 2014 Spark EV's guess-o-meter read 105 miles. While I wouldn't like to see a 35% drop in battery capacity, it would still leave me plenty of mileage for around town use which is about 90% of my regular driving needs. Winter might be a bit more difficult but not a show stopper. At least I do not have to buy gasoline!

 

[oilerlord]

The only measurement I have is the maximum range on the guess-o-meter after a full overnight charge. I get my best range when the outside temperature is in the high 60s or low 70s with both my 2014 and 2015 Spark EVs repeatedly giving me about 103-106 miles. If I assume the battery doesn't degrade with use, then, everything else being equal, I should see the same range values for the same weather temperature range each year. If the battery starts losing capacity, the guess-o-meter range number after a full overnight charge should drop too. If the degradation is only 1.25% a year (10% over 8 years), I will not notice the change for a few years. However, if it is 4.38% per year (35% over 8 years), that should be very noticeable within the first year or two. Currently, my 2014 Spark EV (4700 miles on the odometer) is already giving me 104 miles and my 2015 Spark EV (7900 miles on the odometer) is already giving me 100 miles. Any other ideas?

Battery degradation is absolutely quantifiable, just not through the guess-o-meter. I don't know if there are reporting tools available to the public that you hook up to the car's OBD2 port that report the health of each cell - but they do exist. There is an app called "Leaf Spy Pro" that does this for the Leaf, but I'm not sure if anything like that exists for the Spark EV. For the hobbyist looking to rebuild a Nissan Leaf battery pack on their own, that tool is essential in identifying failed or degraded cells.

 

[MrDRMorgan]

The only measurement I have is the maximum range on the guess-o-meter after a full overnight charge. I get my best range when the outside temperature is in the high 60s or low 70s with both my 2014 and 2015 Spark EVs repeatedly giving me about 103-106 miles. If I assume the battery doesn't degrade with use, then, everything else being equal, I should see the same range values for the same weather temperature range each year. If the battery starts losing capacity, the guess-o-meter range number after a full overnight charge should drop too. If the degradation is only 1.25% a year (10% over 8 years), I will not notice the change for a few years. However, if it is 4.38% per year (35% over 8 years), that should be very noticeable within the first year or two. Currently, my 2014 Spark EV (4700 miles on the odometer) is already giving me 104 miles and my 2015 Spark EV (7900 miles on the odometer) is already giving me 100 miles. Any other ideas?

Battery degradation is absolutely quantifiable, just not through the guess-o-meter. I don't know if there are reporting tools available to the public that you hook up to the car's OBD2 port that report the health of each cell - but they do exist. There is an app called "Leaf Spy Pro" that does this for the Leaf, but I'm not sure if anything like that exists for the Spark EV. For the hobbyist looking to rebuild a Nissan Leaf battery pack on their own, that tool is essential in identifying failed or degraded cells.

The limited warranty booklet also mentioned that the dealer could perform a capacity measurement but would need the car for 24 hours.

 

[NORTON]

The limited warranty booklet also mentioned that the dealer could perform a capacity measurement but would need the car for 24 hours.

OK, this makes sense.
It would be connecting the battery to a controlled resistive load and measure the battery kWh from full to cut off,, most likely.
Hopefully they are not putting the car on some rolling dyno type tester.

Either way, it would be a good work out for the battery. A serious work out, maybe. Would TMS kick in to help cool things and its load be counted too?

It would require a base-line test then, what ?, Bi-annual tests to plot a trend?

You first.
I'm going to let my Spark EV age gracefully without poking at it on a treadmill. :mrgreen:

 

[oilerlord]

OK, this makes sense.
It would be connecting the battery to a controlled resistive load and measure the battery kWh from full to cut off,, most likely.
Hopefully they are not putting the car on some rolling dyno type tester.

Either way, it would be a good work out for the battery. A serious work out, maybe. Would TMS kick in to help cool things and its load be counted too?

It would require a base-line test then, what ?, Bi-annual tests to plot a trend?

You first.
I'm going to let my Spark EV age gracefully without poking at it on a treadmill. :mrgreen:

I doubt that the process involves anything that invasive. As part of GM's Battery Management Software, it's likely that each individual cell has the ability to report it's health to the controller during a simple diagnostic test. When the time comes to sell your car, showing the prospective buyer this data proving that you took great care of the battery, will overcome any objections about remaining battery life, and may also get you a higher resale value.

 

[NORTON]

... As part of GM's Battery Management Software, it's likely that each individual cell has the ability to report it's health to the controller during a simple diagnostic test. ...

Would this be the same as an actual Capacity Test?
Why would this take '24 hours' ?

Who wants to be the first to pay for this mysterious testing ? :shock:

 

[MrDRMorgan]

I will do like oilerlord and let "Sparkie" age gracefully. After an easy 8 amp L1 EVSE fully charge overnight, my 2014 Spark EV's guess-o-meter read 105 miles this morning. Then, I drove 12.2 miles around town in stop and go traffic and averaged 6.4 mi / kWh. When I returned home, the guess-o-meter still read 100 miles. 100 miles left plus 12.2 miles driven gives me 112.2 miles of potential range. Not bad! Not bad at all! Gotta love this car!