Replacement Battery Cost

[CCIE]

GM doesn't show us battery capacity

While GM doesn't give "bars" like Leaf, what we get with "leaf button" info is far more accurate. Since it shows battery capacity from full charge, it effectively calibrates each time you take a valid reading (ie. known full charge), and it shows numbers, not some nebulous "bars". Depending on how % and kWh line up, you can have well over 200 data points for one full charge-discharge cycle with which to estimate the capacity. Assuming random sampling (resulting Gaussian distribution in estimate), you can figure out the confidence of such data using statistical methods.

In order to get similar data from Leaf, you have to get after-market "Leaf-Spy" device. Leaf "bars" are not linear with first bar being much larger than subsequent ones. And even then, they had lots of issues with "bar sensor" which they attributed to battery capacity complaints. Sure, losing 4 bars with Leaf is a sign to take it to the shop, but that may mean it has degraded more than 35% when that happens. I doubt Nissan err'ed on the side of having less degradation showing 4 bars lost; they "fixed" that problem early on.

Except that everyone, including the dealers, knows what the bars mean and trusts them. Good luck explaining your calculation to a dealer or GM tech support and having them take it seriously.

 

[SparkevBlogspot]

Except that everyone, including the dealers, knows what the bars mean and trusts them. Good luck explaining your calculation to a dealer or GM tech support and having them take it seriously.

In early days of Leaf, Nissan "fixed" degraded battery by recalibrating the "bar sensor". Dealers can pull the same trick; if it was marginal, they can "recalibrate" to make it seem better. Maybe Nissan improved the sensor, but from their past behavior, I wouldn't be so trusting.

For SparkEV, if they don't take you seriously at the dealer after consistently seeing more than 35% degradation, you can contact the corporate. If they ignore you, too, then you have a legitimate case. AFAIK, GM never pulled "recalibrate the sensor" to dodge / deny battery issue.

 

[NORTON]

... Good luck explaining your calculation to a dealer or GM tech support and having them take it seriously.

I agree with you here, especially at the dealership level. They have more money making pursuits than to mess with your little BEV.

Look, GM sold ~7500 Spark EV's in America. They probably sell that many pick up trucks a week... :roll:
Near the end they just wanted them off the lots and were discounting them a lot.

When, and if, you hang in there and own your Spark EV when it degrades to the 35% level (bc it will), have your capacity logs ready as evidence, save the photos from the energy screen, also. (That's how I create my logs.)
Maybe then you can find someone at corporate whp will listen to you.

 

[MrDRMorgan]

... Good luck explaining your calculation to a dealer or GM tech support and having them take it seriously.

I agree with you here, especially at the dealership level. They have more money making pursuits than to mess with your little BEV.

Look, GM sold ~7500 Spark EV's in America. They probably sell that many pick up trucks a week... :roll:
Near the end they just wanted them off the lots and were discounting them a lot.

When, and if, you hang in there and own your Spark EV when it degrades to the 35% level (bc it will), have your capacity logs ready as evidence, save the photos from the energy screen, also. (That's how I create my logs.)
Maybe then you can find someone at corporate whp will listen to you.

It would be interesting to know what some of the high mileage (50K+ miles) Spark EV owners are now experiencing when they calculate the battery capacity using the information on the energy Information screen.

 

[scrambler]

It would be interesting to know what some of the high mileage (50K+ miles) Spark EV owners are now experiencing when they calculate the battery capacity using the information on the energy Information screen.

Ask and you shall receive

2014 Spark bough used at the beginning of this year, 52k miles
date--------%----kWh----Capacity
21-Jan-----99%--15.9----16.1
17-Feb-----72%--11.7----16.3
7-Apr------59%--9.5------16.1
28-Apr-----87%--14.1----16.2
30-May----59%--9.3------15.8
27-Jun-----61%--9.8-----16.0

 

[67goat]

If you have capacity degradation near or obviously above the 35% (not range, but capacity) but the dealer refuses to test, and you live in California use this tactic:

After they refuse to test say, "So, you are telling me that the only way I can have this warranty service is if you perform the correct diagnostic to prove degredation, but you are refusing to perform the test?"

When they answer that is correct, then come back with, "Then I am left with no recourse but to report this failure to provide warranty service to the DMV investigative services division."

More than likely, they will come around very quickly. Do not use this action lightly, or if you are at 25% degradation. You need to have your backup first, and that backup should indicate a strong case for testing.

Let's just say I once got a dealership to buy back a used car (paying back my down, the three payments I had made, and a few thousand extra for my time) when I discovered they had sold the car under false pretenses (though I think it was a lack of proper research rather than malicious intent) using this method.

Side note, a coworker of mine just got Nissan to subsidize his Leaf battery. He was close to a warranty replacement, but still a few % off. He's getting a brand new battery pack for 1200.

 

[NORTON]

...Ask and you shall receive

2014 Spark bough used at the beginning of this year, 52k miles
date--------%----kWh----Capacity
21-Jan-----99%--15.9----16.1
17-Feb-----72%--11.7----16.3
7-Apr------59%--9.5------16.1
28-Apr-----87%--14.1----16.2
30-May----59%--9.3------15.8
27-Jun-----61%--9.8-----16.0

What figure are you using for 'Original Capacity' ? I don't know what to use on my spread sheet.

Are these individual days for each month, or averages from several data points each month?
As you can see it varies and this doesn't show anything useful for this time frame.
But it is encouraging ! I'm just behind you at ~37 K miles on my '14.

 

[NORTON]

...Side note, a coworker of mine just got Nissan to subsidize his Leaf battery. He was close to a warranty replacement, but still a few % off. He's getting a brand new battery pack for 1200.

Good to know.
It may be the new higher cap pack with the 107 mile rating. I saw a used one for sale that claimed it had a fresh warranty pack and it was the current big pack.

 

[SparkevBlogspot]

2014 Spark bough used at the beginning of this year, 52k miles

If you do the sig figure dance to estimate best case and worst case scenarios, you come up with no loss in capacity to about 0.15 kWh loss.

typical = (kwh ./pct*100)
best_case = ((kwh+0.05) ./ (pct-0.5) * 100)
worst_case = ((kwh-0.05) ./ (pct+0.5) * 100)

 

[MrDRMorgan]

It would be interesting to know what some of the high mileage (50K+ miles) Spark EV owners are now experiencing when they calculate the battery capacity using the information on the energy Information screen.

Ask and you shall receive

2014 Spark bough used at the beginning of this year, 52k miles
date--------%----kWh----Capacity
21-Jan-----99%--15.9----16.1
17-Feb-----72%--11.7----16.3
7-Apr------59%--9.5------16.1
28-Apr-----87%--14.1----16.2
30-May----59%--9.3------15.8
27-Jun-----61%--9.8-----16.0

Fantastic! Thanks. I am currently seeing about 17.5 kWh for my calculated battery capacity.

I hope my 2014 Spark EV performs as well in the future. Currently, I only have 10.5K miles on it so, from your data, it looks like I can expect many more years of not having to worry about range degradation. Today, in 80 Deg. F weather and driving in town at 35-45 mph, my full charge range is 108 miles.

 

[davidbilby]

Update from high mileage owner. I just passed 67,000 miles. Capacity is coming in at 15.5 kwh. It appears as though the car's computer percentage is slightly off. What I mean is that when I am at 50% it shows about 7.9 kwh used, but when I get to empty (yes, I get to completely empty too often) it is registering between 15.5 and 15.6 kwh. It will also show 100% used but I still have 2 miles of range left. If the 19.5 kwh is the usable capacity than I guess I have only lost just over 20% of my battery. So with 1/3 of my warranty miles left, I would end up with about 70% of my original battery capacity, well within the warranty. I am not sure if battery degradation is linear or not though since I didn't notice much loss of capacity in the first 15-20k miles, but really saw it pick up quickly as I got over 30k miles. Driving in southern California in near perfect weather for an EV, it is surprising that I have lost so much capacity. I would understand if you are in Phoenix and you are driving and parking your car in 110' heat, but my average driving temp is between 50-80 degrees. I guess it is wishful thinking that someone will produce an aftermarket battery replacement for the car. Oh well. Model 3 will arrive around February and little sparky will have 85,000 miles or so on it and a resale value of around $4k (best estimate).

 

[scrambler]

Although there are no definite public number, the nominal Usable capacity is supposed to be more in the 18.5kWh.

 

[SparkevBlogspot]

Have you charged to full using L1/L2? I "recovered" about 0.5 kWh by charging to 100% few times. Normally, I don't charge to 100% due to living on top of a hill, but doing so made the capacity increase. I suspect it's due to cell balancing.

 

[67goat]

Update from high mileage owner. I just passed 67,000 miles. Capacity is coming in at 15.5 kwh. It appears as though the car's computer percentage is slightly off. What I mean is that when I am at 50% it shows about 7.9 kwh used, but when I get to empty (yes, I get to completely empty too often) it is registering between 15.5 and 15.6 kwh. It will also show 100% used but I still have 2 miles of range left. If the 19.5 kwh is the usable capacity than I guess I have only lost just over 20% of my battery. So with 1/3 of my warranty miles left, I would end up with about 70% of my original battery capacity, well within the warranty. I am not sure if battery degradation is linear or not though since I didn't notice much loss of capacity in the first 15-20k miles, but really saw it pick up quickly as I got over 30k miles. Driving in southern California in near perfect weather for an EV, it is surprising that I have lost so much capacity. I would understand if you are in Phoenix and you are driving and parking your car in 110' heat, but my average driving temp is between 50-80 degrees. I guess it is wishful thinking that someone will produce an aftermarket battery replacement for the car. Oh well. Model 3 will arrive around February and little sparky will have 85,000 miles or so on it and a resale value of around $4k (best estimate).

67,000 miles is quite a bit and involves quite a few charging cycles. Given that usable is more like 18.5, you're not even at 20% loss. That is exceptional.

You mentioned Phoenix, although their chemistry is better now, the early Leafs in that city lost .75-1% per 1000 miles. That would put your loss in the 50-67% range.

 

[jay5729]

I have just over 101K miles on my 2014 and the usable capacity looks to be around 14.5kWh. As for replacement cost, I see used Sparks on autotrader with under 20K miles selling for under $10k. There's one on there right now with 14K miles on it for $8,750. I would consider buying that one used, and swapping the battery. Anyone know if that can even be done?

 

[CCIE]

I have just over 101K miles on my 2014 and the usable capacity looks to be around 14.5kWh. As for replacement cost, I see used Sparks on autotrader with under 20K miles selling for under $10k. There's one on there right now with 14K miles on it for $8,750. I would consider buying that one used, and swapping the battery. Anyone know if that can even be done?

It can probably be done. But, why wouldn’t you just sell your Spark and drive the newer one?

 

[NORTON]

I have just over 101K miles on my 2014 and the usable capacity looks to be around 14.5kWh. As for replacement cost, I see used Sparks on autotrader with under 20K miles selling for under $10k. There's one on there right now with 14K miles on it for $8,750. I would consider buying that one used, and swapping the battery. Anyone know if that can even be done?

What's so bad about a Spark EV with a 14.5kWh pack? :roll:

Is it really worth putting a ton of money into it to gain ~4kWh in the pack?
Are you plotting the capacity over time and averaging? One measurement now and then can be deceiving.

 

[MrDRMorgan]

I have just over 101K miles on my 2014 and the usable capacity looks to be around 14.5kWh. As for replacement cost, I see used Sparks on autotrader with under 20K miles selling for under $10k. There's one on there right now with 14K miles on it for $8,750. I would consider buying that one used, and swapping the battery. Anyone know if that can even be done?

What's so bad about a Spark EV with a 14.5kWh pack? :roll:

Is it really worth putting a ton of money into it to gain ~4kWh in the pack?
Are you plotting the capacity over time and averaging? One measurement now and then can be deceiving.

Wow! I sure hope my 2014 and 2016 Spark EVs have 14.5 kWh left in the battery at 100K miles. I would be one happy camper!

 

[NORTON]

...Wow! I sure hope my 2014 and 2016 Spark EVs have 14.5 kWh left in the battery at 100K miles. I would be one happy camper!

Yeah, I was thinking the same thing after I replied.
Wow, is this guy the mileage leader?!!

I've been keeping my head in the sand and not plotting capacity for a while. I'll get back into it someday.
The car is still allowing a round trip on one charge,, almost... The coldest days are killer...
But, I still plug in L1 at work "for TMS reasons, not to suck up free company electrons.." :lol:
(The public network across the street has started charging after +2 years of Free. )

 

[SparkE]

In terms of replacement battery pack(s) ...


MAYBE I will have parts available from a 2016 Spark EV : everything, including the battery pack (about 17.5-18 kWh, according to most recent informal test) - EXCEPT anything attached to the first 12 inches or so of the vehicle. .

I say maybe , because I haven't heard from my insurer yet whether or not the vehicle will be writen off.

In the case the insurer writes off the vehicle, I'd hate to see this vehicle go to the car-cruncher before it's useful parts give other vehicles a second life. So seats, mirrors, wheels/tires, battery pack, windows, doors, etc. *might* be available. Maybe you want a set of "acceptable tires" when you lease return (instead of buying 4 new ones for $900) - my tires still have about half their tread - or you want to be able to have two sets - summer and winter (grippy) - so another set of wheels/rims would be useful.

I live in the south SF bay area (near San Jose, CA).

I'm just wondering if anyone might be interested.