So the salesman tells me...

[gra]

GRA: What can I say other than thanks for the rock solid info. I wish you had been the dealer rep I was dealing with the last couple of days. These dealers need someone as knowledgeable as you. From the link you included and the experience of others on this thread, it sounds like many of us are getting the same crackpot assurances from sales people that the Spark can utilize a quick charger. My guy didn't even know there were two different protocols, though he did have the grace, eventually, to acknowledge that the car would not accept either one.

So I'm left wondering if I really need the ability to quick charge in 20 minutes. It's a psychological safety net for sure. But would I really use it that often? And, I really like the zip and feel of driving the Spark.

It should all be resolved, one way or the other, by this weekend.

Glad I could help, it's too bad that you had to find out after the fact. As to whether you need QC capability or not, it really depends on what you plan to use the car for. For commuting, it's generally not needed unless you're pushing the max. range when the car is new (since the battery will lose capacity as it ages, and you'll also use more energy when using the AC and especially the heater/defroster, you need to allow for this loss of range). Fortunately, you're in a climate that will cause slower degradation, the Spark has an active, liquid-cooled Thermal Management System for the battery that further protects it, and you're only leasing for 3? years, so you shouldn't lose more than 20% capacity or so over that period, possibly considerably less.

Tony's range test of a Spark EV under ideal conditions at 62 mph resulted in about 98 miles of range to absolute empty, but this is very bad for the battery. Most people prefer to keep an emergency reserve by normally discharging to either the first Low Battery Warning (LBW) or at most the second, Very Low Battery Warning (VLBW); the deeper you discharge the battery the shorter its lifespan. In Tony's test, the car went 78 miles to LBW, and 88 to VLBW; subtract from that allowances for use of HVAC/lights/wipers/ascents and headwinds, etc. Taking all of the above into consideration, you can probably figure on going at least 50 miles and possibly 60 or a bit more at ca. 60-65 mph until LBW, while making free use of the HVAC system and accessories, for the next three years if not longer.

Where QC is important is if you want to do shorter road trips, or if you're marginal on your commute range _now_. The 3.3kW on-board charger is very slow when charging away from home (and is the single biggest deficiency of the Spark EV IMO, as all its competitors now come with chargers approximately twice as fast). A faster L2 charger also allows more spontaneous trips immediately after returning home in the evening with a nearly empty battery. Lacking a faster on-board L2 charger, the QC is more important for such trips (assuming one's available).

When your battery degrades, having QC capability may be the difference between being able to do your commute or not. And the same holds true if you move or change jobs giving you a longer commute.

HTH in your decision. Personally I wouldn't want a car without the QC, because there are trips I could take with one that are impractical without it, and even though there aren't any CCS QCs available in my area now, there will be within the next year or two. But that's me, and I don't need a car to commute.

 

[TonyWilliams]

(Tony, can you please confirm my understanding....thanks!!)

Charging Options for Spark ---
1. 120v at home
2. 240v at home (with an installed charging station)
3. NO Public charging option available. That means I cannot use the EV charging station at work or free charging station available at Target. (Is this a true statement??) No, not true; you can absolutely use J1772 public charging.
4. DC quick charge (if bought as an option), however it will be the CCS "General Motors only" Frankenplug. No other US car company is using this standard, as Tesla has their own "Supercharger" standard, and Ford and Fiat/Chrysler have no cars with DC quick charging. There are no operational public Frankenplug chargers in the USA currently.

Charging options for Leaf ---
1. 120v at home
2. 240 at home (with an installed charging station) You can pay about $300 and get the charge cord that comes with the car modified for 240 volts. http://www.EVSEupgrade.com
3. Public Charging (including the one at work or at Target) J1772, yes.
4. DC quick charge (if bought as an option) CHAdeMO quick charge worldwide standard... the plug is the same in Tokyo, Chicago, or Oslo, with about 3000 active worldwide.

 

[gra]

(Tony, can you please confirm my understanding....thanks!!)

Charging Options for Spark ---
1. 120v at home
2. 240v at home (with an installed charging station)
3. NO Public charging option available. That means I cannot use the EV charging station at work or free charging station available at Target. (Is this a true statement??) No, not true; you can absolutely use J1772 public charging.

If the Voltec portable EVSE is the same one used by the Volt, then http://www.EVSEupgrade.com can update it to 208-240V capability, just like the LEAF's portable EVSE. Useful for away from home trips. Although the Spark's 3.3 kW on-board charger isn't particularly fast, it's still about 3 times faster than charging on 120 volts (which is what the unmodified portable EVSE is limited to). Unfortunately, unlike the LEAF's portable EVSE, the Voltec unit once modified can no longer be used on 120 volts.

 

[fengshui]

Spark can take advantage of almost all public chargers currently deployed. At most of them, you're charging at 12-15 miles per hour, so it's not particularly fast, but if you need a few extra miles while you're out, or if you're out all day, it should be fine. As for DC quick-charging, it all depends on where you live. Here in Southern California, nearly all of the ChaDeMo chargers are installed at Nissan dealers, and don't really make for the best charging experience, especially at dealers that may have 1 charger, only available during business hours, when the dealer is not using it. In the pacific northwest, on the other hand, there are a lot more public ChaDeMo chargers (some of those may become dual ChaDeMo/SAE at a later date). At some point in the next few years, a bunch of GM/BMW SAE compatible chargers will be installed in California, but that will take time and still may not be in the best locations. Personally, I think DC quick-charging is a gimmick for cars with less than 50 kWh batteries, as you just can't get very far between charges when road-tripping, and the number of times you'll *need* the DC charge over a standard J1772 charger will probably not compensate for the additional $750-1000 cost for the DC charge option in the first place.

 

[TonyWilliams]

Spark can take advantage of almost all public chargers currently deployed. At most of them, you're charging at 12-15 miles per hour, so it's not particularly fast, but if you need a few extra miles while you're out, or if you're out all day, it should be fine... At some point in the next few years, a bunch of GM/BMW SAE compatible chargers will be installed in California, but that will take time and still may not be in the best locations.

NRG / EVgo will install 200 Frankenplugs if there is a car capable of using one *and* that car is not just a strict compliance car. Unfortunately, Chevy Spark EV has not ventured outside the "compliance only" label, so far.

But, let's say that BWM i3 showed up in April 2014 in non-CARB-ZEV compliance states. Then, NRG / EVgo will have six months to install the first Frankenplug, and are only required to have 12 the first year. The project is 4 years total.

Evey install, all 200 of them, will have a CHAdeMO first (or at the same time).

Personally, I think DC quick-charging is a gimmick for cars with less than 50 kWh batteries, as you just can't get very far between charges when road-tripping, and the number of times you'll *need* the DC charge over a standard J1772 charger will probably not compensate for the additional $750-1000 cost for the DC charge option in the first place.

DC or AC fast charging (over 20kW) is vitally important for smaller battery cars, since unlike the Tesla 85kWh, you absolutely need a charge if you're going to drive more than 30-50 miles from home.

As you correctly identify, no, you won't get far in the small battery car before you need a charge, but would you want to wait for power at 16 or 30 amps during a long trip? Heck, no!!!

 

[fengshui]

Personally, I think DC quick-charging is a gimmick for cars with less than 50 kWh batteries, as you just can't get very far between charges when road-tripping, and the number of times you'll *need* the DC charge over a standard J1772 charger will probably not compensate for the additional $750-1000 cost for the DC charge option in the first place.

DC or AC fast charging (over 20kW) is vitally important for smaller battery cars, since unlike the Tesla 85kWh, you absolutely need a charge if you're going to drive more than 30-50 miles from home.

As you correctly identify, no, you won't get far in the small battery car before you need a charge, but would you want to wait for power at 16 or 30 amps during a long trip? Heck, no!!!

I think we're in agreement that for the next few years, the CHAdeMO network will be a nearly complete superset of the SAE DC network, and the LEAF will have more DC charging options than the Spark or i3 during that time.

My perspective is that city cars such as the LEAF, Spark EV and i3 aren't appropriate as long trip vehicles at all, regardless of DC Quick Charge availability. Even if you were lucky and had CHAdeMO chargers available every 80 miles, you'd still be stopping for 20 minutes out of every 60. That's just too much charging time for more than a single mid-drive charge. Tesla's can stop for 30 minutes every 180, and even that's barely tolerable. I just don't see non EV-enthusiasts benefiting from DC quick charge on a vehicle with 80-90 miles of range.

As I see it, if you're driving more than 40-50 miles from home, there are five possibilities:
1) You're staying at your destination for many hours (overnight), and can charge with a public CHAdeMO, J1772 charger or your portable charger.
2) You're staying for a few hours, but a public CHAdeMO or J1772 charger is available nearby and you can add enough range while at your destination to get home.
3) You're only staying for less than an hour, and a CHAdeMO charger is close enough and available such that you can QC and get home.
4) You are travelling more than 80 miles from home, there is a CHAdeMO charger every 80 miles or so during your trip, and you don't mind waiting to charge for 20-30 minutes each direction each stop. (Presuming you can obtain a full-charge at your destination, or there's also a CHAdeMO charger there as well)
5) Some other situation where sufficient charging is not possible.

My guess is that for most drivers, they will drive their EV in situations 1 and 2, but would prefer to take an ICE for situations 3 and 4, and must use an ICE for situation 5. Even if you plan things out just right, how many trips of types 3 and 4 do drivers take in a year? Do many people drive 70 miles each way for an hour visit at a destination that happens to be near a CHAdeMO unit (Nissan Dealer) where they can QC? Situations 3 and 4 above feel like they require a perfect alignment of circumstances.

All that said, I could be totally wrong about common driving habits, and QC could make sense for a lot of people. It just doesn't match with my experience, FWIW.

 

[scotte]

DC quick charge (if bought as an option), however it will be the CCS "General Motors only" Frankenplug. No other US car company is using this standard, as Tesla has their own "Supercharger" standard, and Ford and Fiat/Chrysler have no cars with DC quick charging. There are no operational public Frankenplug chargers in the USA currently.

I was really hoping we were beyond repeatedly posting the "frankenplug" rants. *SIGH*. I'm not sure why Tony wants so badly for this DC fast charging standard (and it is an SAE standard) to fail, perhaps because as a Tesla investor he has a financial stake in it - I can't think of any other reason why he might care so much and keep spreading so much (dis)information surrounding the SAE Combo standard.

Anyway, while it is true the Spark is the only specific vehicle from a US manufacture which has so far announced use of the SAE standard (the word "announced" is important, as not a single vehicle available currently is available which supports the standard), it's just a matter of time. BMW, Audi, Daimler, Porsche, Volkswagen, Chrysler, and Ford have all agreed to back the SAE J1772 Combo standard. Yes, those last two - Chrysler and Ford - are also US manufacturers, obviously, so unfortunately Tony is also incorrect in his assertion that GM is the only US manufacturer who has announced support for the SAE standard.

There might be a lot more CHAdeMO plugs in the world at this point, and I don't think anyone can predict what the fast charging landscape will look like in 5 or 10 years, but don't discount the amount of power the combined forces of Audi, BMW, Chrysler, Daimler, Ford, GM, Porsche, and Volkswagen have - that's a good chunk of the US and European manufacturers, with Asian manufacturer's clearly absent.

And to be perfectly clear - my dog isn't in this hunt at all. My Spark doesn't have it, which suits me fine, and the Spark's lease will be over long before the dust settles around DC charging standards!

 

[TonyWilliams]

I was really hoping we were beyond repeatedly posting the "frankenplug" rants. *SIGH*. I'm not sure why Tony wants so badly for this DC fast charging standard (and it is an SAE standard) to fail, perhaps because as a Tesla investor he has a financial stake in it - I can't think of any other reason why he might care so much and keep spreading so much (dis)information surrounding the SAE Combo standard.

The old "must be some financial angle" routine.... REALLY BIG SIGH !!!

Yes, I have owned Tesla, and Ford, and GM, and whole bunch of others. Does that throw a monkey wrench in your thought process?

I do get that Frankenplug is an "SAE standard". CHAdeMO is a "CHAdeMO standard" and Tesla Supercharger is a "Tesla standard". Certainly, I could go on, as there are a lot more standards out there, but those seem to be the ones that those of us in the USA are concerned with.

Overseas, Chameleon is a Renault standard, Mennekes is a "German standard", et al, ad nauseum.

The point is that the world is full of standards, and yet another is in the wings; a perfect reflection of the old adage, "the best thing about standards is that there are so many to chose from".

Here's my number one problem with this... it has and will continue to slow down infrastructure deployment, confuse the EV buying public (as is already been seen several times on this forum with just a few hundred Spark EVs sold) and confuse government officials who finance much of the public charging infrastructure. All for what gain? To have a standard that is used no place else on the planet except for here in the USA by some US and German car makers. A standard for one country.

Chrysler and Ford - are also US manufacturers, obviously, so unfortunately Tony is also incorrect in his assertion that GM is the only US manufacturer who has announced support for the SAE standard.

Fiat/Chrysler (your "US" manufacturer) and Ford are indeed members of the proposed standard. Neither has a single announced EV to use the standard. Fiat/Chrysler went as far as saying that they basically won't be in the EV business "for 10 years or more". Of course, they must build some EVs for California Air Resources Board (CARB) compliance, and Fiat/Chrysler did build 491 Fiat 500e's for 2013. Ford built a few more Focus EVs. Neither has a DC charge port and neither are planned for one.

The "other" US manufacturer, Tesla, builds tens of thousands of electric cars and won't ever be using this proposed standard, and yet all their cars are currently produced to be capable of DC fast charging at 90kW to 120kW. Tesla is an SAE member, by the way.

So, who does that leave truly stumping for the Frankenplug? GM.

There might be a lot more CHAdeMO plugs in the world at this point, and I don't think anyone can predict what the fast charging landscape will look like in 5 or 10 years, but don't discount the amount of power the combined forces of Audi, BMW, Chrysler, Daimler, Ford, GM, Porsche, and Volkswagen have - that's a good chunk of the US and European manufacturers, with Asian manufacturer's clearly absent.

I'm not sure what the "Asian" manufacturers are absent from. I'm sure they think that those 8 auto manufacturers are absent from the rest of the world!!! But, perhaps teeny tiny Toyota and Nissan don't know much!! GM and the rest of the world said that 40 years ago, and I think history repeats itself.