Which charger to choose?

[gra]

Exceptionally rare to see anything besides the the 15amp 120V u-ground straight blade receptacle and the 30amp 120V twist lock receptacles. In any North American RV or trailer park.
A four pin 120/240 single phase and 120/208 single phase rarely exists in a typical RV park or camp ground. I've seen high end RV parks like KOA with one or two of the four pin multi volt receptacles.
I wouldn't hit a camp ground expecting L2 charging.

I have seen quite a few references to 50 amp, 240 volt plugs and outlets. Those bus-sized RVs will have them, and they use them to power air conditioning and heating systems.

They may be uncommon in your part of the country, but any camper area here where it gets hot would need to have a few sites with them to accommodate the big RVs. Just Google: RV 240 volt plug

Here's a NEMA 14-50 (240 volt 50 amp) receptacle. I have one ready to install in my garage.

Yes, any RV park that lists '50 amp', that's a 240V circuit using a NEMA 14-50 receptacle. They almost never know that the 20 or 30 and 50 amp circuits use different voltages, so just ask if they have 50 amp hookups. If they do, you can be sure it's 240V (and if they only have 20 or 30 amp they will be 120V).

 

[cwerdna]

To add to RV parks in the US, http://www.myrav4ev.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=7&t=1161 is a thread about someone driving from So Cal to Milford, UT in his Rav4 EV. The guy lists his city as Van Nuys, so that's 503 miles one way. He made it.

I haven't read the thread carefully yet but he's was charging at RV parks at least part of the time.

 

[NickM]

Check out electromotor works for the Juice have one its 60 amp 10-240 volt cheapest and strongest on the market and if you put the kit togather yourself you will save a ton.

 

[SteveC5088]

Check out electromotor works for the Juice have one its 60 amp 10-240 volt cheapest and strongest on the market and if you put the kit togather yourself you will save a ton.

I was attracted by that 60 amp claim. Once I got the kit, it was clear that the 60 amp part may be high.

First, you can't currently get a J1772 plug and wire rated higher than 32 Amp. They say by mid-july they should have one. However, I wouldn't get that, since the cord will need to be thick, heavy and bulky. The 32 Amp version is heavy enough, and handles twice what the Spark or Volt can use.

The JuiceBox parts and wiring are not ready for 60 amps, either, regardless of the claim. The relay switch has 80A stamped on it, but I tried mine at 40 amps (ran two cars' charging plus several electric heaters) through it, and the relay parts got hot, and the 50-amp input wire was warm after 5 minutes.

 

[cwerdna]

First, you can't currently get a J1772 plug and wire rated higher than 32 Amp.

I doubt that's correct given there are 240 volt 40 amp EVSEs like http://toyota.leviton.com/solutions/rav4ev and a few public ones that go that high (http://www.myrav4ev.com/forum/viewtopic.php?p=7478#p7478).

There's also http://www.clippercreek.com/store/product/charging-station-cs-100-high-power/, which from the brochure supports up to 75 amps continuous.

 

[sparkyps]

Here is one that claims to be rated at 75A

http://manzanitamicro.com/products?page=shop.browse&category_id=41&vmcchk=1

 

[SteveC5088]

Well thanks for the links to those high-amp EVSE and J1772 plug and cord. I meant to write that the emotorwerks site didn't offer anything higher than 32 amps.

Note that 75 amp plug and cord at ManzanitaMicro is $350 by itself! There have got to be some really heavy wires running through it.

 

[TonyWilliams]

First, you can't currently get a J1772 plug and wire rated higher than 32 Amp. They say by mid-july they should have one. However, I wouldn't get that, since the cord will need to be thick, heavy and bulky. The 32 Amp version is heavy enough, and handles twice what the Spark or Volt can use..

[moderator edit - commercial post]

 

[xylhim]

I wonder if they will make an SAE combo plug charger capable of plugging into a NEMA 14-50 outlet for faster home charging.

 

[Chaconzies]

That would not be possible. The Combo is for DC charging and needs 400V and a giant charger. It's not a plug n play.

 

[cwerdna]

That would not be possible. The Combo is for DC charging and needs 400V and a giant charger. It's not a plug n play.

Yep. xylhim needs to look at http://www.mynissanleaf.com/viewtopic.php?p=262630#p262630.

When doing DC fast charging, the on-board charger used for L1 and L2 AC charging is bypassed. One is using a very large external charger instead.

 

[xylhim]

That would not be possible. The Combo is for DC charging and needs 400V and a giant charger. It's not a plug n play.

Yep. xylhim needs to look at http://www.mynissanleaf.com/viewtopic.php?p=262630#p262630.

When doing DC fast charging, the on-board charger used for L1 and L2 AC charging is bypassed. One is using a very large external charger instead.

Do you absolutely need 400v? When I was quick charging last week, the charger went to around 200V / 50 amps for a time. Why couldn't someone hack the software to fool the car into thinking that it was being quick charged?

 

[cwerdna]

That would not be possible. The Combo is for DC charging and needs 400V and a giant charger. It's not a plug n play.

Yep. xylhim needs to look at http://www.mynissanleaf.com/viewtopic.php?p=262630#p262630.

When doing DC fast charging, the on-board charger used for L1 and L2 AC charging is bypassed. One is using a very large external charger instead.

Do you absolutely need 400v? When I was quick charging last week, the charger went to around 200V / 50 amps for a time. Why couldn't someone hack the software to fool the car into thinking that it was being quick charged?

When you're using a DC fast charger, you're using the EXTERNAL charger in the large unit the car is being plugged into and it is supplying DC to the car which then goes to the battery. The battery needs DC to charge.

When you're doing AC charging, AC is being supplied to the car and the car's on-board charger is responsible for upping the voltage, converting to DC (so that it can go into the battery), etc. The Spark EV's on-board charger is a 3.3 kW OBC. That's the bottleneck. (200 volts @ 50 amps is 10 kW. You don't have a 10 kW OBC.)

Then you're plugged into an L1 or L2 EVSE for AC charging, the EVSE is mainly just a smart switch w/GFCI and implements https://code.google.com/p/open-evse/wiki/J1772Basics. The EVSE tells the vehicle how much it can output safely at max via the pilot signal and the car's OBC is supposed to comply. L1 and L2 EVSEs do not alter the line voltage, convert AC to DC, nor have any knowledge of the car's battery condition, voltage, temperature, etc.

The difference in hardware is part why L1 and L2 EVSEs can be as cheap as a couple hundred dollars (and some feel they're overpriced at that) while DC FCs are currently at least $10K. Some costs at http://www.mychevysparkev.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=7&t=3753

We've had some discussion about why an EVSE is needed before at http://www.mynissanleaf.com/viewtopic.php?f=27&t=4898 and http://www.mynissanleaf.com/viewtopic.php?f=26&t=4056.

If you wanted a car w/a 10 kW OBC, you should've gotten a Rav4 EV or Model S. Or, if you wanted a 20 kW OBC, a 2nd 10 kW OBC is optional on the Model S. I've posted about it at http://www.mychevysparkev.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=7&t=3549 and numerous times here before. http://shop.teslamotors.com/products/high-power-wall-connector is Tesla's 240 volt 80 amp EVSE.

I just did a quick Google search and found these, which may help you:
http://www.edn.com/electronics-blogs/automotive-currents/4421241/How-the-J1772-charging-standard-for-plug-in-vehicles-works
http://www.sae.org/smartgrid/chargingprimer.pdf

 

[NickM]

I wonder if they will make an SAE combo plug charger capable of plugging into a NEMA 14-50 outlet for faster home charging.

I have seen these boxes(not sure of name) that steps up the voltage so why not possible get one that can step it up 220 to 400 volt with out costing an arm and a leg for hours time or somewhere near that.For less then $2500.00 .Whoever get there first deserves that million dollar prize.

 

[cwerdna]

I have seen these boxes(not sure of name) that steps up the voltage so why not possible get one that can step it up 220 to 400 volt with out costing an arm and a leg for hours time or somewhere near that.For less then $2500.00 .Whoever get there first deserves that million dollar prize.

You talking about a step up transformer? That's already inside the car's on-board charger.

I'm not sure how that'd help. If you fed 400+ volts AC into the car's on-board charger that's only supposed to accept 240 volts at max, you'd probably let out the http://www.catb.org/jargon/html/M/magic-smoke.html.

 

[NickM]

You talking about a step up transformer? That's already inside the car's on-board charger.

I'm not sure how that'd help. If you fed 400+ volts AC into the car's on-board charger that's only supposed to accept 240 volts at max, you'd probably let out the http://www.catb.org/jargon/html/M/magic-smoke.html.
Almost but not quite.I meant with a combo charger so it would be dc not ac

 

[xylhim]

When you're using a DC fast charger, you're using the EXTERNAL charger in the large unit the car is being plugged into and it is supplying DC to the car which then goes to the battery. The battery needs DC to charge.

When you're doing AC charging, AC is being supplied to the car and the car's on-board charger is responsible for upping the voltage, converting to DC (so that it can go into the battery), etc. The Spark EV's on-board charger is a 3.3 kW OBC. That's the bottleneck. (200 volts @ 50 amps is 10 kW. You don't have a 10 kW OBC.)

Then you're plugged into an L1 or L2 EVSE for AC charging, the EVSE is mainly just a smart switch w/GFCI and implements https://code.google.com/p/open-evse/wiki/J1772Basics. The EVSE tells the vehicle how much it can output safely at max via the pilot signal and the car's OBC is supposed to comply. L1 and L2 EVSEs do not alter the line voltage, convert AC to DC, nor have any knowledge of the car's battery condition, voltage, temperature, etc.

The difference in hardware is part why L1 and L2 EVSEs can be as cheap as a couple hundred dollars (and some feel they're overpriced at that) while DC FCs are currently at least $10K. Some costs at http://www.mychevysparkev.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=7&t=3753

We've had some discussion about why an EVSE is needed before at http://www.mynissanleaf.com/viewtopic.php?f=27&t=4898 and http://www.mynissanleaf.com/viewtopic.php?f=26&t=4056.

If you wanted a car w/a 10 kW OBC, you should've gotten a Rav4 EV or Model S. Or, if you wanted a 20 kW OBC, a 2nd 10 kW OBC is optional on the Model S. I've posted about it at http://www.mychevysparkev.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=7&t=3549 and numerous times here before. http://shop.teslamotors.com/products/high-power-wall-connector is Tesla's 240 volt 80 amp EVSE.

I just did a quick Google search and found these, which may help you:
http://www.edn.com/electronics-blogs/automotive-currents/4421241/How-the-J1772-charging-standard-for-plug-in-vehicles-works
http://www.sae.org/smartgrid/chargingprimer.pdf

So I'm well aware of the differences between EVSE charging and using a DCFS system, I've read plenty of your posts in the past and am well informed :lol: ; I know that I cannot put more than 240v/15 amps into my onboard charger. That's not my question. My question is if it is possible to transform the AC to DC via an external charger (like mimicking a DCFS station) but do it at a lower voltage/amperage than a typical fast charging station. I'm not concerned about cost, this is a hypothetical; has anyone to your knowledge tried this using ChaDeMo?

 

[cwerdna]

So I'm well aware of the differences between EVSE charging and using a DCFS system, I've read plenty of your posts in the past and am well informed :lol: ; I know that I cannot put more than 240v/15 amps into my onboard charger. That's not my question. My question is if it is possible to transform the AC to DC via an external charger (like mimicking a DCFS station) but do it at a lower voltage/amperage than a typical fast charging station. I'm not concerned about cost, this is a hypothetical; has anyone to your knowledge tried this using ChaDeMo?

Well, ABB has some 20 kW DC FCs. Fuji has some 25 kW ones. That's "lower than typical" to me, since I've only personally used 44 kW http://nissanqc.com/ ones.

I recall that valerun has been working on a cheap CHAdeMO DC FC. Below should be the right thread and is part of an email I sent to a friend of mine in Feb 2014:
-- begin email --
I haven't followed this closely as I don't care, but I only recently became aware of such projects going on due to these posts:
http://www.mynissanleaf.com/viewtopic.php?p=354329#p354329 and
http://www.mynissanleaf.com/viewtopic.php?p=354392#p354392.

His link is bad but he's apparently pointing to the thread at http://www.mynissanleaf.com/viewtopic.php?f=44&t=13349.

There's a test at http://www.mynissanleaf.com/viewtopic.php?p=349058#p349058.

I saw some pics at https://www.facebook.com/groups/BayLeafs/permalink/634786449912353/?stream_ref=2 (not sure if you can get to them). I didn't attend that meeting but there's finally a video up of it. If you're curious about it, go to http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RW9GEm2iqr4&feature=youtu.be and skip to ~56:30, I believe the speaker is valerun on MNL.

He mentions he was quoted $2200/piece for a CHAdeMO connector, in quantities of 100. So, they 3D printed their own! There are some pics at the above FB page...
-- end email --

Maybe skip start about 10 or 20 pages from the end of that thread and read the responses valerun, if you want to know more. I'd imagine he could adapt what he's got to charge CCS cars but he needs talk Green PHY instead of CAN and deal w/any other quirks, besides having enough interest from buyers to make it worth his while. At this point, seems highly unlikely given the # cumulative # of Leafs sold vs. CCS compatible cars.

I can't speak to your 200 volts that you observed. When I've charged my Leaf on CHAdeMO DC FCs that show voltage and amperage, voltage is always near 400 volts but amperage falls as the battery gets closer to full. Eventually, if it gets full enough, it'll be below L2 speeds (below 6.6 kW).

 

[Chaconzies]

I think what you're looking for is something like this:http://ecomento.com/2014/06/02/portable-electric-car-fast-charger-launched-by-designwerks/

" It works by converting the strong three-phase (AC) power from many charging stations to CHAdeMO and CCS standards , enabling appropriately-equipped cars to charge up using direct current at their true potential.

Currently, a Nissan LEAF plugged into a three-phase charging station will only pull a maximum of 6.6kW of power due to the limitation of it’s onboard charger. This despite the supply being as much as 43kW.

The ChargeBox portably converts this power into direct current, allowing the LEAF to recharge at full capacity. This would take around 30 minutes (at least to reach an 80 percent state-of-charge) instead of four hours."

Great Idea and could be awesome but it runs at $20,400 dollars right now.

 

[SteveC5088]

The author, Richard Lane, writes:
It works by converting the strong three-phase (AC) power from many charging stations to CHAdeMO and CCS standards, enabling appropriately-equipped cars to charge up using direct current at their true potential.

Currently, a Nissan LEAF plugged into a three-phase charging station will only pull a maximum of 6.6kW of power due to the limitation of it’s onboard charger.

The "fact sheet" on the box shows its input as: AC Input: 22kW, 32A, 400VAC

I believe that is only available in European systems, and may be similar to our 240 volt input (single phase two-hot mains).