Spark EV Quick Charging Overview

[gra]

Gra, I agree about keeping things short and w/o adding TMI.

It would be nice to add supporting info in appendices. I like how you're trying to keep things neutral, despite the complaints from one person here. :roll: One problem w/just indicating car models is that it doesn't provide any context into numbers.

For the 3 standards, it almost sounds like:
- standard 1: 1 car now , 1 coming soon, 1 coming later
- standard 2: 2 cars + 1 more coming soon
- standard 3: 1 car, 2 more coming in a few years

But, there are orders of magnitude differences in installed base and sales volumes of standard 2 or 3 vs. 1, and this has further implications. But yes, probably the numbers or a version of http://www.mychevysparkev.com/forum/viewtopic.php?p=5554#p5554 w/o the word "Frankenplug" should go an in appendix.

I want to include a section titled something like "Even if there are no CCS charging stations near me now, will there be in the future?" and go into at least the basic distribution details.

 

[Nashco]

I would much rather have someone see what ALL their options are in one place, and the advantages/disadvantages of each, rather than providing lots of links they have to follow. Then they can make a fully-informed choice as to the most appropriate EV in their specific circumstances, instead of trying to shoehorn them into any specific one just because that's the name of the forum.

I'm really confused. I showed that Wikipedia is by far easier to find with common searches. This website is for Spark EVs. Why do you believe this is a proper venue to discuss Tesla supercharger retrofits and Blink teething issues with incompatible chargers that happened in the past? This isn't an EV soap box. I'm an EV advocate and do my best to spread the gospel...when the venue is appropriate. This isn't an appropriate venue for those topics. This venue is for discussing the Chevy Spark EV.

The only change I think you should make is to the first section below, where I recommend changing '15 amp circuits' to '15 or 20 Amp circuits', as either is acceptable.

Sure. Updated. And for the record, I typed that up, I didn't copy it from anywhere else.

Bryce

 

[gra]

First try. Too much here needs to be moved to appendices, but it will get things started.

If there aren't any CCS chargers near me now, how soon will there be in future?

That depends on a variety of factors, including where you live, sales volumes, and most importantly manufacturer and government financial support, or lack of it. If you live in the Los Angeles, San Diego, San Francisco or Sacramento metropolitan areas, you're in luck. As a condition of a legal settlement with the state, NRG Energy is required to install 200 Quick Chargers total in those areas (including 14 in the San Joaquin Valley) from 2013 to 2016. Most of the initial 20 or so they've installed have been CHAdeMO only, but now that the Spark and other CCS-equipped BEVs are entering the market, they will start to install dual CHAdeMO/CCS QCs instead.

Outside of those areas, our knowledge is limited. Oregon and Washington have been supportive of EVs and have paid to install CHAdeMOs in the past. I don't know whether they will also support upgrading those CHAdeMOs to dual-mode or install new CCS QCs; as far as I know, they haven't announced any concrete plans.

Initially, most U.S. QCs (all CHAdeMO) were installed by companies that received government grants to do so. Many of those companies never developed a business model that would let them succeed without government money, so when the grants ran out the companies went under. In many cases the chargers were bought up by another company, but they often go unmaintained so are frequently unavailable.

Absent government funds, most QCs have been funded by companies whose cars can use them, i.e. Nissan for CHAdeMO, and Tesla for their cars. Only Tesla has really figured out to make them pay, by including $2,000 in the price of every car sold to fund their proprietary SuperChargers. That's fine for a car that starts at $70k, but not for one that lists half that or less. Nissan's support has been belated, and somewhat half-hearted. Most of their QCs have been installed at dealers, where access to them is often limited. It remains to be seen how much financial and other support Chevy, BMW, VW and other members of the SAE CCS consortium will provide to encourage CCS charger installations.

 

[NomadMac]

Question:
Is fast charging part of the compliance mandate for vehicle manufacturers?

 

[TonyWilliams]

It appears my posts are being deleted over and over, so I'll repost and see if the same thing happens.

USA Quick Charge data, sometimes colloquially referred to as "L3"
...

I've added the 2 pages of this thread so far to http://archive.org/... We shall see.

I have now smoked out the responsible party. Another post of mine was deleted here for "advertising", so I'll be watching as to how many other advertising links this moderator allows to remain posted. Thankfully, the "Petition to Ban TonyWilliams" thread was removed, but not without several back and forth exchanges. It appears this moderator couldn't quite see a problem originally with any of the personal attacks on the thread (again, that I never even posted in) or having my real name left up as a thread title with "ban" in it.

As to Spark EV portable charging cords, there are other choices that you can use in any J1772 equipped car. My company is a paid vender on one of the sister sites to this one. You can view the paid vender posts here: http://www.myrav4ev.com/forum/viewforum.php?f=11

Here's the modified post:

If you were to use a portable charge cord used on one of the most celebrated all-electric powered cars in history produced by an unnamed automotive company that doesn't pay vender fees here (but it begins with "T") and you modify that portable charge cord for the Spark EV charge port (add a J1772 plug), then when you attach the respective $45 plug, it will automatically provide up to the following in your electric vehicle:


............................................VOLTS / AMPS.......kW
NEMA 5-15 .......Standard Outlet.. 120 V / 12 A...... 1.4 kW
NEMA 5-20 ...... Motel air conditioner 120/16A....... 1.9 kW
NEMA 10-30......Older Dryers...... 240 V / 24 A...... 5.8 kW
NEMA 14-30......Newer Dryers..... 240 V / 24 A...... 5.8 kW
NEMA 6-50 .......Welding Equip.... 240 V / 40 A...... 9.6 kW
NEMA 14-50......RVs and Camps.. 240 V / 40 A...... 9.6 kW


There is one company currently producing this product, specially modified to work with the Chevy Spark EV, and that company is a paid vender on the http://www.MyRav4EV.com/forum site at:

http://www.myrav4ev.com/forum/viewforum.php?f=11

This post is also tagged by me for the moderator and admin log.

 

[TonyWilliams]

Question:
Is fast charging part of the compliance mandate for vehicle manufacturers?

Yes and no. Virtually none of the pure CARB-ZEV compliance only cars have any DC charging option. Here are the six "large" manufacturers who have been required to sell Zero Emission Vehicles since 2012 model year:

GM - Spark EV - the only one with a DC quick charger that merely "complies"
Ford - Focus EV - nada
Fiat / Chrysler - 500e - nope
Toyota - Rav4 EV - negatory; they hate EV's and will sell hydrogen in 2015-2017
Nissan - LEAF - absolutely, but they want to actively sell EV's with over 100,000 sold
Honda - Fit EV - not here, but to add insult, they offer CHAdeMO DC quick charge in Japan!


The "fast refueling" has been met in only two ways so far; battery swapping or with hydrogen refueling at 5,000-10,000 psi. It must be complete within 10 minutes, if I recall, to meet the threshold. Tesla gets the "fast refueling" credit because they demonstrated battery swapping for Model S (within 95 seconds !!!!).

For 2012-2014 "Phase 3", 12% of production must meet Yearly ZEV requirements (including ZEV's, Enhanced AT PZEVs, ATPZEVs and PZEVs). Of that 12%, 0.79% must be ZEV.

Any type of ZEV may be used (usually battery EV or hydrogen ZEV)

Type V - 300+ miles range "hydrogen" - Credit per vehicle: 9 (2015-2017 only)
Type V - 300+ miles range "fast refueling" - Credit per vehicle: 7
Type IV - 200+ miles range "fast refueling" - Credit per vehicle: 5
Type III - 100+ miles range "fast refueling" - Credit per vehicle: 4
Type III - 200+ miles range -------------- Credit per vehicle: 4
Type II - 100+ miles range --------------- Credit per vehicle: 3
Type I.5 - 75-100 miles range ----------- Credit per vehicle: 2.5
Type I - 50-75 miles range --------------- Credit per vehicle: 2

After 2017, the credits for Type III, IV and V drop to 3

All manufacturers must report by May of the calendar year following the compliance model year; e.g., for 2008 model year, report is due may 1, 2009. Manufacturers may update reports until September. Manufacturers have two years to make up a ZEV deficit, or they are subject to penalties outlines in Health and Safety Code 43211:

$5000 penalty per vehicle CREDIT not produced

For 2015 and beyond, most other manufacturers must also sell a ZEV in California.

http://www.arb.ca.gov/msprog/macs/macs.htm


This post is tagged by me for the moderator and admin log.

 

[TonyWilliams]

Tony: That's a rather bizarre but sad fact, that there are combo units in Canada, but no Chevy Spark EV. Maybe Chevy will reconsider and allow single owner purchases or leases, but also maybe the folks in Canada who are putting up the highway are anticipating the BMW and VW EV models?
Lou

I personally know the owner of Sun Country Highways, and they were a sponsor for one of our cars in last year's BC2BC-2013 http://www.AllElectricVehicleRally.org

There are less than 1000 Nissan LEAF's in the entire country of Canada, so that is less than 1% of the total worldwide LEAF production. Of course, none of the "compliance only" manufacturers like GM are going to sell an EV there, since it isn't required, and the last I read, not a SINGLE Canadian dealer signed up to sell the BMW i3. That leaves the compliance only VW eGolf; in other words, the chance of having more than two Frankenplug cars in Canada in the coming years seems grim.

I will absolutely guarantee that Chevy dealers are prohibited from selling Spark EV out-of-state, because if it's not registered in California first, GM won't get the three CARB-ZEV credits.

But, you could always buy used and ship it anywhere.

 

[TonyWilliams]

Here's a good overview of the NRG / eVgo rollout areas for combination charge stations of CHAdeMO and Frankenplug over the next 4 years:

Stolen from "drees" on the http://www.MyNissanLEAF.com forum:


Found this image on this eVgo YouTube video showing where NRG is planning on installing the 200 QC stations for California.

Anyone else see some major issues with it?

 

[gra]

Here's a good overview of the NRG / eVgo rollout areas for combination charge stations of CHAdeMO and Frankenplug over the next 4 years:

Stolen from "drees" on the http://www.MyNissanLEAF.com forum:


Found this image on this eVgo YouTube video showing where NRG is planning on installing the 200 QC stations for California.

Anyone else see some major issues with it?

H'mm, I see they've left off the Sacramento area, as well as any communication corridor between the S.F. Bay Area and Sacramento (although Fairfield/Vacaville are in Solano county, so hopefully not a problem). Checking some of the original articles, I can't find any mention of them in the Sacramento area, so will remove it from the OP. The lack of QCs in Santa Cruz (for some bizarre reason labelled 'Del Norte' on the map) and northern Monterey counties is also a problem, one common to CHAdeMO.

 

[gra]

Tony, I'd like to put that graphic in the OP, but my attempts to cut and paste it haven't worked. Could you send it to me?

 

[gra]

I would much rather have someone see what ALL their options are in one place, and the advantages/disadvantages of each, rather than providing lots of links they have to follow. Then they can make a fully-informed choice as to the most appropriate EV in their specific circumstances, instead of trying to shoehorn them into any specific one just because that's the name of the forum.

I'm really confused. I showed that Wikipedia is by far easier to find with common searches. This website is for Spark EVs. Why do you believe this is a proper venue to discuss Tesla supercharger retrofits and Blink teething issues with incompatible chargers that happened in the past? This isn't an EV soap box. I'm an EV advocate and do my best to spread the gospel...when the venue is appropriate. This isn't an appropriate venue for those topics. This venue is for discussing the Chevy Spark EV.

We'll just have to disagree. The forum provides topics relating to other EVs, so it clearly extends beyond just the Spark. While many people may find their way to Wikipedia first, directly below the link for Wikipedia on Google is a link to 'spark ev forum', so they're almost as likely to wind up here directly. And of course, the best advertising is word of mouth, and some people will be referred here by current owners/members.

The only change I think you should make is to the first section below, where I recommend changing '15 amp circuits' to '15 or 20 Amp circuits', as either is acceptable.

Sure. Updated. And for the record, I typed that up, I didn't copy it from anywhere else.

Bryce

Excellent. Your prose is far more concise than my own.

 

[TonyWilliams]

Tony, I'd like to put that graphic in the OP, but my attempts to cut and paste it haven't worked. Could you send it to me?

Send an email to:

TonyWilliams [at] QuickChargePower [daught] com

and I will send it to you.

 

[gra]

Tony, I'd like to put that graphic in the OP, but my attempts to cut and paste it haven't worked. Could you send it to me?

Send an email to:

TonyWilliams [at] QuickChargePower [daught] com

and I will send it to you.

Sent.

 

[gra]

Thanks, Tony, it's now included. I also found out a mention of SMUD's plans to install QCs around Sacramento in articles like this one: http://green.autoblog.com/2013/08/30/sacramento-first-with-dc-fast-chargers-with-sae-combo-chademo/

so have included that info in the OP.

A map showing the proposed SMUD locations can be found if you click on this link

https://www.smud.org/en/residential/environment/plug-in-electric-vehicles/charging-a-PEV.htm

and then on the one at the bottom of that page labelled 'View a map of "fast charging" stations coming soon'. Seems like excellent locations, on the periphery of the city covering all the major routes: 5, 50, 80 and 99.

 

[jay5729]

Thanks, Tony, it's now included. I also found out a mention of SMUD's plans to install QCs around Sacramento in articles like this one: http://green.autoblog.com/2013/08/30/sacramento-first-with-dc-fast-chargers-with-sae-combo-chademo/

so have included that info in the OP.

A map showing the proposed SMUD locations can be found if you click on this link

https://www.smud.org/en/residential/environment/plug-in-electric-vehicles/charging-a-PEV.htm

and then on the one at the bottom of that page labelled 'View a map of "fast charging" stations coming soon'. Seems like excellent locations, on the periphery of the city covering all the major routes: 5, 50, 80 and 99.

According to sacev, the first SAE combo station for SMUD is up and running. 6th st. Off of hwy 50. Semacharge station, requires card and cost is $.20 / kWh.

You should also put some information about the costs involved of the NRG eVgo stations. Monthly membership fees, initial setup fees and rate fees. EVgo is the most expensive network I have seen so far. A $5.00 set up fee with $5.00 to $20.00 a month membership and rate fees still around $1.00 an hour or $.42 a kWh.

 

[KeiJidosha]

Thanks, Tony, it's now included. I also found out a mention of SMUD's plans to install QCs around Sacramento in articles like this one: http://green.autoblog.com/2013/08/30/sacramento-first-with-dc-fast-chargers-with-sae-combo-chademo/

so have included that info in the OP.

A map showing the proposed SMUD locations can be found if you click on this link

https://www.smud.org/en/residential/environment/plug-in-electric-vehicles/charging-a-PEV.htm

and then on the one at the bottom of that page labelled 'View a map of "fast charging" stations coming soon'. Seems like excellent locations, on the periphery of the city covering all the major routes: 5, 50, 80 and 99.

According to sacev, the first SAE combo station for SMUD is up and running. 6th st. Off of hwy 50. Semacharge station, requires card and cost is $.20 / kWh.

You should also put some information about the costs involved of the NRG eVgo stations. Monthly membership fees, initial setup fees and rate fees. EVgo is the most expensive network I have seen so far. A $5.00 set up fee with $5.00 to $20.00 a month membership and rate fees still around $1.00 an hour or $.42 a kWh.

An email Friday (3/14) said "There has been a delay in the opening of the SMUD dual format fast charger. Legal issues need to be resolved before opening.". So sounds not to be open yet.

 

[TonyWilliams]

An email Friday (3/14) said "There has been a delay in the opening of the SMUD dual format fast charger. Legal issues need to be resolved before opening.". So sounds not to be open yet.

Well, I don't know specifically what issue they are referring to, but there is a HUGE issue that SMUD seems to have overlooked.

It's against the law for California Public Utilities to sell electricity "past the meter".

That would also include giving the electricity away.

This is not a "little glitch" that will be fixed with some PR and BS.

 

[gra]

An email Friday (3/14) said "There has been a delay in the opening of the SMUD dual format fast charger. Legal issues need to be resolved before opening.". So sounds not to be open yet.

Well, I don't know specifically what issue they are referring to, but there is a HUGE issue that SMUD seems to have overlooked.

It's against the law for California Public Utilities to sell electricity "past the meter".

That would also include giving the electricity away.

This is not a "little glitch" that will be fixed with some PR and BS.

They seem to have contracted with SemaCharge to operate them, just donating the land, so I think they're covered.

 

[TonyWilliams]

The meter that I'm referring to is the termination point of where the California Public Utility provides service and has a method to account for the electricity used, and where the Utility's customer then owns the wiring, consumes the electricity and gets billed for that consumption.

The issue isn't "free" versus "paid" electricity; the Utility can't provide the service AT ALL beyond the termination point at the electrical meter.

Texas has different laws than California, which is why the Texas Public Utility NRG / eVgo can offer what they do, even in California (they don't sell electricity in Claifornia, but merely consume it).

I don't agree with a "free" charging model for reasons that I've addressed ad nauseum elsewhere. Tesla's service is neither free, nor public. You pay approximately a $2500 premium to access the private network of Superchargers.

Electricity powered cars are already far cheaper to operate than their fossil fuel powered competition, so the fact that a $2500 lifetime fee, or a $5 per use fee applies, it's still cheaper than petroleum.

What meter are you speaking about? I want to to reed EDTA'S last news letter and see that free charging is becoming the way of the future! Thanks to Tesla and Nissan proves that free EV charging helps sell cars.

Could free access to a 240-volt and DC fast-charging network persuade consumers to buy a battery-electric vehicle? Nissan has been seeking the answer to that question through a program in Texas that offers free charging to buyers of the Nissan Leaf. At the same time — through the trial program — charging station provider NRG gets to test another business model for making public charging profitable.

If Texas can do it... so can SMUD along with the State of California. Think outside the box my friend

 

[NickM]

yes sparks can be retrofitted two chevy dealers one where I got the car in ukiah calif and one from radley autogroup on the east coast.
Two wire harnesses with plug attached price part numbers, price and advibilty and a module part number price but for some reason will not release it too the dealers.Drawings included

file:///C:/Users/Nick/Downloads/attachment%20(8).pdf