2015 Spark no longer 21-kWh and now 19 ???

[sparkyps]

ICE buyers and taxpayers are subsidizing EV buyers, I won't argue whether that is good or bad, I'm just going to take advantage of it.

 

[TonyWilliams]

ICE buyers and taxpayers are subsidizing EV buyers, I won't argue whether that is good or bad, I'm just going to take advantage of it.

And all of us have been subsidizing oil cars for 100 years.

 

[nozferatu]

If CARB-ZEV and CAFE mileage requirements disappeared tomorrow, so would the Spark EV, like the EV-1 before it. I would guess the Volt would go, too.

Very much doubt it....times have changed...and will continue to change. There are lots of other reasons now to go clean and electric...not just CARB-ZEV or CAFE. Those are just standards to prolong ICE's until they are no longer feasible sustainably or environmentally.

 

[gra]

If CARB-ZEV and CAFE mileage requirements disappeared tomorrow, so would the Spark EV, like the EV-1 before it. I would guess the Volt would go, too.

Very much doubt it....times have changed...and will continue to change. There are lots of other reasons now to go clean and electric...not just CARB-ZEV or CAFE. Those are just standards to prolong ICE's until they are no longer feasible sustainably or environmentally.

Sure, there are lots of other reasons to 'go clean and electric'. The question is, does the 99.4% of the driving population who haven't got a PEV consider those reasons important enough to buy the cars at their current price, without subsidies, and without being forced to? With the probable exception of Tesla, the answer is no. As for non-plug in HEVs, 450,000 of them were sold in the U.S. last year, out of 15.4 million LDVs or just 2.88% of sales, for cars that don't require people to make any changes in their driving habits or any alterations in their homes.

 

[iletric]

Very much doubt it....times have changed...

So this is why Spark is available throughout the entire U.S. :mrgreen:

Times have not changed, nozferatu. GM looks only at one thing - the bottom line. CA twisted carmakers' arm to make EVs. GM has no choice but to make Spark because it would cost them much more to buy credits for every truck and car they sell here - and there is a lot of those.

It's the same as not fixing that ignition key lock. The question GM asked itself was, what's cheaper, pay for a few deaths or replace locks in millions of GM cars. !2 dead, after all, cost "only" 12 million dollars. You can figure out the rest.

 

[cwerdna]

It's no surprise that your limited knowledge of the EV business allows this thinking, but nonetheless, you are wrong regardless of what you might believe.

There is absolutely NO WAY that GM does anything but lose money on the Spark EV, and plenty of it.

Absolute rubbish...keep thinking that....lol.

nozferatu thinking is hilarious. Even from http://www.greencarreports.com/news/1083890_next-chevy-volt-10000-cheaper-to-build-profitable-for-gm from May 2013

Akerson also noted that the second-generation Chevy Volt would be profitable, unlike the current version.

"We're losing money on every one," he admitted.
...
And it will ride on a dedicated platform, according to GM product chief Mark Reuss, rather than an adapted version of GM's compact-car underpinnings used for the Cruze and other models.

At that point, from adding up the numbers at http://insideevs.com/monthly-plug-in-sales-scorecard/, the Volt had sold ~36K units in the US + a small # outside the US along w/its close cousin, the Opel Ampera. And, remember, from the above, keep in mind the platform on which the Volt is based, the Cruze, is well past 2 million units sold (http://media.gm.com/media/us/en/gm/news.detail.html/content/Pages/news/us/en/2013/Sep/0926-cruze.html).

So, somehow an EV that hasn't even sold 1K units is profitable and is enough to cover all its costs of materials, parts, R&D, engineering, testing, validation, tooling, etc.? Right... Sure...

I haven't added up the numbers recently, but I'd done the math before that TSLA, in its time as as public company has racked up net losses of ~$1 billion, so far w/~30K units sold and a very expensive car.

 

[nozferatu]

Brilliant reverse psychology scheme from Fiat's CEO...and it works.

 

[nozferatu]

If CARB-ZEV and CAFE mileage requirements disappeared tomorrow, so would the Spark EV, like the EV-1 before it. I would guess the Volt would go, too.

Very much doubt it....times have changed...and will continue to change. There are lots of other reasons now to go clean and electric...not just CARB-ZEV or CAFE. Those are just standards to prolong ICE's until they are no longer feasible sustainably or environmentally.

Sure, there are lots of other reasons to 'go clean and electric'. The question is, does the 99.4% of the driving population who haven't got a PEV consider those reasons important enough to buy the cars at their current price, without subsidies, and without being forced to? With the probable exception of Tesla, the answer is no. As for non-plug in HEVs, 450,000 of them were sold in the U.S. last year, out of 15.4 million LDVs or just 2.88% of sales, for cars that don't require people to make any changes in their driving habits or any alterations in their homes.

I disagree. We are slowly reaching a point where people are more aware of EV's, and more people have driven them. And most EV owners, I would venture to say, would agree that after driving EVs, they'd never drive a regular car again.

That mentality was neither around nor even available say 10 years ago. The stigma of what an EV is, is changing...and more people are accepting them...with all their flaws. 5 years from now when range gets better, performance gets better, more luxury and amenities are available, people will purchase/lease these cars with or without subsidies. It's how it's worked and will continue to work.

Things are changing...you guys are comparing a product in its relative infancy, modern times, to an 100 year old established product. And even in this current state of affairs it's gaining traction well.

 

[buickanddeere]

Sorry, duplicate post

 

[buickanddeere]

Without tax breaks, rebates, subsidies,carbon credit trading , legislation etc. The electric vehicle would not exist outside of the golf course and warehouse. Everybody is paying for a few person's EV's.
If the general public would wake up there is a niche EV market as a 2nd or 3rd vehicle for short trips or short commutes. Or for the downtown condo dweller that only needs their own wheels on occasion.
That said I am in the market for an EV for 2 or 3 daily 25 mile round trips the kids make into town for work, school, sports etc. It would be cheaper to pay for a spark then to put fuel in the oldest vehicle in the fleet.

 

[TonyWilliams]

Things are changing...you guys are comparing a product in its relative infancy, modern times, to an 100 year old established product. And even in this current state of affairs it's gaining traction well.

So, you're basically admitting your "profitable GM compliance car" rhetoric is pure BS, counter to your previous statements since we are in the relative infancy.

Unless, of course, GM has magic powers of profit while in relative infancy, extreme limited production in two CARB-ZEV states, on a converted chassis.

And FIAT is using "reverse psychology" when they only produce and sell 450 cars per year at a HUGE loss for CARB-ZEV compliance. By the way, Fiat also went to great lengths to try and hide the sales volume but when they had to recall them for failed drive lines, the government needs to know how many are out there... busted.

That recall probably was reverse psychology to tell everybody what a GREAT car it is, eh? I'm on the edge of my seat waiting for your next insights about EV's !!!! You are consistent with limited knowledge of the industry!

 

[sparkyps]

Fiat is selling more than 450 500e's/year. Their most recent May 10th recall was for 4,141 500e vehicles. Their Aug 2013 recall occurred after less than 2 months of sales and that was for only a few hundred vehicles.

They sold 450 in Sept 2013 according to this:

http://insideevs.com/monthly-plug-in-sales-scorecard/

Their numbers look reasonable, they aren't broken out by model at the following link but the totals are similar:

http://electricdrive.org/index.php?ht=d/sp/i/20952/pid/20952

Any completely new model rolled out is a money loser at the start, whether Chevy has a plan in place where the incremental costs of building the Volt and Spark EV result in a profitable sale I don't know. I think they realize that CA and federal regulations aren't going away and they are looking at the costs of developing the Volt and Spark EV as R&D costs that will eventually be spread across a growing line of partial to full EV lineup. Not that it is worth arguing about, they aren't making money selling Volts or Spark EVs and they aren't close to making money on them.

 

[nozferatu]

Things are changing...you guys are comparing a product in its relative infancy, modern times, to an 100 year old established product. And even in this current state of affairs it's gaining traction well.

So, you're basically admitting your "profitable GM compliance car" rhetoric is pure BS, counter to your previous statements since we are in the relative infancy.

Unless, of course, GM has magic powers of profit while in relative infancy, extreme limited production in two CARB-ZEV states, on a converted chassis.

And FIAT is using "reverse psychology" when they only produce and sell 450 cars per year at a HUGE loss for CARB-ZEV compliance. By the way, Fiat also went to great lengths to try and hide the sales volume but when they had to recall them for failed drive lines, the government needs to know how many are out there... busted.

That recall probably was reverse psychology to tell everybody what a GREAT car it is, eh? I'm on the edge of my seat waiting for your next insights about EV's !!!! You are consistent with limited knowledge of the industry!

No I'm not. You are saying that when you shouldn't.

Nothing in the Spark EV is ground breaking tech..it's evolutionary and the entire car is based on the Volt and the economy Spark with obvious advances in some areas. But the R&D is not only for the Spark...it trickles into every other car GM makes where applicable.

To claim they are losing money is pure BS. Fiat's CEO loves suckers. Reverse psychology works well apparently. So yeah..hold on to your seat since you don't dig too deep about things.

 

[iletric]

To claim they are losing money is pure BS. Fiat's CEO loves suckers. Reverse psychology works well apparently.

Really?
Every time Fiat Chrysler Automobiles sells a 500e electric model, the company loses thousands of dollars, according to the company's chief executive.

"I hope you don't buy it because every time I sell one it costs me $14,000," Sergio Marchionne said at a conference in Washington on Wednesday, as reported by Reuters. "I'm honest enough to tell you that."

 

[cwerdna]

^^^
You could at least attribute that to the right person...

To claim they are losing money is pure BS. Fiat's CEO loves suckers. Reverse psychology works well apparently. So yeah..hold on to your seat since you don't dig too deep about things.

Hilarious. There's someone here that doesn't "dig too deep about things" but it sure isn't Tony.

 

[tigger19687]

ok, looks like this thread is just turned into a pissing match.

 

[TonyWilliams]

Not that it is worth arguing about, they aren't making money selling Volts or Spark EVs and they aren't close to making money on them.

There's at least one cheerleader who thinks GM makes money with an extreme limited production, converted electric car. No facts required!!! Sadly, I don't think if the CEO of GM poured the facts directly into some people's ear, those same people will "believe what they want to believe".

If GM were making money on their compliance offering, it would be the only car company doing so. They must just be super duper amazing !!!!

Fiat is selling more than 450 500e's/year. Their most recent May 10th recall was for 4,141 500e vehicles. Their Aug 2013 recall occurred after less than 2 months of sales and that was for only a few hundred vehicles. They sold 450 in Sept 2013 according to this:

Reviewing actual data is tough with our friends at Fiat (and Tesla, since they are the only two that don't provide monthly reports), but it looks like there is about 170-ish being sold per month for 2014. I stand corrected, as that is clearly more than 450 per year Fiat 500e's sold per year... more like 2000 per year.

 

[TonyWilliams]

^^^
You could at least attribute that to the right person...

To claim they are losing money is pure BS. Fiat's CEO loves suckers. Reverse psychology works well apparently. So yeah..hold on to your seat since you don't dig too deep about things.

Hilarious. There's someone here that doesn't "dig too deep about things" but it sure isn't Tony.

It is funny!!! We have had guys much like our esteemed Mr. nozferatu one of the other forums. They are routinely wrong, and it is widely pointed out how wrong they are by lots of people (not just me). It almost make me think these type of people just need attention. Nobody could be that clueless.

 

[Nashco]

Please keep on topic!!!

Having run my car to absolutely empty from full (not in a single drive, but in a single charge), I think there's some funny numbers games going on anyway. The sticker range is the best measuring stick for the car now, in my opinion, as there's a lot more to range than a kWh rating (and the rating for kWh usable has a lot of what-ifs!). There are changes in controls, gearing, weight, etc. that also affect things.

For a relevant example, the sticker on my A123 battery says 17.1 kWh. GM previously advertised the Spark EV as having a 21 (or 21+) kWh battery. The only time I've run mine to a stand still (had to push it 500 feet to the charging station!), my energy display showed 19.1 kWh since last full charge. So, which is it...17, 19, or 21 kWh? The answer: It depends.

The moral of the story is that when the 2015 hits the showrooms, we'll be able to really see how they compare in useable energy and efficiency. I wouldn't get too hung up on kWh alone.

Bryce

 

[cwerdna]

For a relevant example, the sticker on my A123 battery says 17.1 kWh. GM previously advertised the Spark EV as having a 21 (or 21+) kWh battery. The only time I've run mine to a stand still (had to push it 500 feet to the charging station!), my energy display showed 19.1 kWh since last full charge. So, which is it...17, 19, or 21 kWh? The answer: It depends.

The 21 kWh is supposed to the the total pack capacity and IIRC 17.1 kWh is the usable amount, just like the Leaf has ~21 kWh usable out of 24.

Nothing in the Spark EV is ground breaking tech..it's evolutionary and the entire car is based on the Volt and the economy Spark with obvious advances in some areas. But the R&D is not only for the Spark...it trickles into every other car GM makes where applicable.

It doesn't matter of a car or its technology is "ground breaking" or not. Development of cars and associated systems in addition to tooling costs and other overhead (as we've already detailed in other posts) is very expensive. Even if an automaker develops just another ICEV, doesn't makes its development cheap. Example below.

From http://www.goauto.com.au/mellor/mellor.nsf/story2/CA29C33951909857CA2575BB00214969

Using General Motors’ Delta II front-wheel-drive small-car platform, the Cruze was developed globally over a 27-month period at a cost of $US4 billion ($A5.3 billion). GM built 221 prototypes during that time, with testing done in Australia, the US, Sweden, Canada, the UK, South Korea and China.

Re: the bolded part... let's see, the Volt uses a transaxle w/2 motor/generators and 3 clutches that's related to the GM's two-mode transaxle (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Global_Hybrid_Cooperation) that went into their unsuccessful two-mode hybrid full-sized trucks and SUVs (mentioned at the bottom of http://papers.sae.org/2011-01-0887/ and elsewhere). In many ways, it's similar to Toyota's Power Split Device except that the PSD doesn't have 3 clutches.

I don't know about currently as I haven't seen recent Volt Monroney stickers but as I posted about at http://priuschat.com/threads/test-drove-a-volt-today.85990/page-6#post-1290119 (too bad the insideline link is dead now) and re-affirmed at http://gm-volt.com/forum/showthread.php?5912-Electric-Drive-Unit-made-in-Japan, the Volt's transaxle was made in Japan, possibly by Remy or Aisin.

The Spark EV has a single motor and no clutches. Its motor is made in the US (http://media.gm.com/media/us/en/gm/news.detail.html/content/Pages/news/us/en/2013/Apr/0416-spark-electric.html).

The ICE Spark and EV are based on a completely different GM platform than the Cruze/Volt.

The layout, manufacturer of cells, chemistry (http://gm-volt.com/forum/showthread.php?49609-How-is-the-Spark-EV-s-battery-longevity-acheived&p=650897#post650897), cooling method, # of cells, and cell voltage are different between the two (http://gm-volt.com/2013/08/02/spark-ev-versus-volt-battery/).