Battery degredation

[ElDobro]

Two dealers now have told me that they do not have a way to give me the theoretical capacity but plugging into the car's computer. So if this is true how do they determine of the battery is below the threshold?

There's a document they have to follow and it requires a scan tool.

 

[NORTON]

Recent data points from the car's energy page:

miles - date- - - display #'s - - calc kWh
81697 -6-12-20 -58% -10.2 -17.59
82314 -6-29-20 -81% -14.0 -17.28
81557 -6-9-20 -61% -10.9 -17.87
83298 -7-23-20 -63% -11.1 -17.62
(not sorted correctly...)

Are these numbers going to be that much different from what one would get from TorquePro or the dealer's Scan system?

 

[MrDRMorgan]

Recent data points from the car's energy page:

miles - date- - - display #'s - - calc kWh
81697 -6-12-20 -58% -10.2 -17.59
82314 -6-29-20 -81% -14.0 -17.28
81557 -6-9-20 -61% -10.9 -17.87
83298 -7-23-20 -63% -11.1 -17.62
(not sorted correctly...)

Are these numbers going to be that much different from what one would get from TorquePro or the dealer's Scan system?

Norton - I have a bigger question! How does one drive a 2014 Spark EV for almost 83k miles and still have a calculated battery capacity of 17.62 kWh when the battery capacity in my 2014 Spark EV w/o DCFC and 24k miles on the ODO is already 15.0 kWh ???? What is your secret?

 

[NORTON]

.... What is your secret?

First, are these numbers going to be much different than if I used the TorquePro app?

Second, the only thing I do which considers battery health is to not leave it at 100% SOC for longer than necessary.
For the most part I charge once a day, and leave it at home overnight at <60%, then charge at work next day.
If it's a hot one, I'll wait until lunch to plug into the Free Public L2 so it is topped up for less than an hour or so.

That's it!! These cars are happiest using Free electrons! :lol:

I definitely don't baby it. I bump the 90 mph limiter once or twice a week and commute in the left lane with my buds at +70-85 mph.
I like to accel semi-hard up to speed then hit the cruise control.
I'm easy on the brakes and regen forces. I use N to coast off the highway.

Weekends are a different story. We just putz around town locally... She's in the car usually...
I'm such a cheap azz that if I need to add some electrons I'll add just enough to get to work on Monday morning.

 

[TheLondonBroiler]

First, are these numbers going to be much different than if I used the TorquePro app?

From my experience, the Torque Pro capacity figure is pretty well accurate. With batteries, capacity will vary depending on discharge rate, temperature, and probably other factors I don't even know about. I've pulled more energy than the claimed Torque Pro figure, on mild days, with conservative driving. I haven't tried a high speed run to test the opposite, but I'm betting I could get a lower figure.

Speaking of figures, I just checked my Spark and the capacity is down 0.7kwh (13.3 from 14.0), from when I last paid it attention several months ago. It stays stored in the garage, generally kept at 60% SOC (+/-10%).

Second, the only thing I do which considers battery health is to not leave it at 100% SOC for longer than necessary.
For the most part I charge once a day, and leave it at home overnight at <60%, then charge at work next day.
If it's a hot one, I'll wait until lunch to plug into the Free Public L2 so it is topped up for less than an hour or so.

I think this is a great habit and probably does explain a seemingly better than average battery capacity. Lithium cells that are a nominal 3.7 volts configuration, from all I've seen, don't fair too well in terms of lifespan, when regularly kept at higher than 4.0 volts, especially in hot temps. How does this relate to the Spark? Well in my 2015 @ 67.8% SOC (just happens to be at this SOC right now), the average cell voltage is 3.92 volts.

At 75% SOC and higher, you're above 4.0 volts (going off memory). Those of us who keep the SOC high because we have to drive long distances (in relation to a single charge range), and don't have access to convenient charging during that trip/commute, are probably causing greater wear on the battery, albeit unintentional.

Random thought I just had, since 2014 A123 packs are 112 cells in series instead of 96 in series in the 2015&16 LG packs, and the packs are the same voltage, the average cell voltage should be lower. I do remember scanning LOAF's 2014 almost two years ago, and noticing how low the cell voltages seemed in relation to SOC. The two manufacturers likely used different chemistries, but it still may be beneficial to have a 2014 (with dcfc of course ), in this regard.

 

[NORTON]

From my experience, the Torque Pro capacity figure is pretty well accurate.

How do you know this?
Compared to what?
That's exactly my question.
Compared to the dealer's scanning tool, or the car's energy usage page?

 

[TheLondonBroiler]

How do you know this?
Compared to what?
That's exactly my question.
Compared to the dealer's scanning tool, or the car's energy usage page?

Compared to the car's Energy Usage Screen. The battery capacity guess is pulling data from the BECM, and therefore should be the same figure the dealer would get.

I just finished a ~120kph/75mph efficiency/range test. The energy usage screen estimated around 13.6kwh available (I ran it to 36% SOC with 9.1kwh used, started with a full charge. Torque Pro readout is 13.3kwh.

 

[MrDRMorgan]

How do you know this?
Compared to what?
That's exactly my question.
Compared to the dealer's scanning tool, or the car's energy usage page?

Compared to the car's Energy Usage Screen. The battery capacity guess is pulling data from the BECM, and therefore should be the same figure the dealer would get.

I just finished a ~120kph/75mph efficiency/range test. The energy usage screen estimated around 13.6kwh available (I ran it to 36% SOC with 9.1kwh used, started with a full charge. Torque Pro readout is 13.3kwh.

Am I am reading your numbers correctly? You started with a fully charged battery which measured 13.6 kWh being available and, I assume, SOC was 100%. Therefore, you used 9.1 kWh during your rocket trip down the road leaving 36% remaining (you used 64%) in the battery at the end of your ride.

Therefore, 9.1 kWh / 64% = 14.2 kWh calculated battery capacity. This number will drop if your starting SOC was less than 100%.

 

[TheLondonBroiler]

Am I reading your numbers correctly?

Therefore, 9.1 kWh / 64% = 14.2 kWh calculated battery capacity. This number will drop if your starting SOC was less than 100%.

Morgan, you are correct. This is what happens when I use the calculator in my head.

I did another run with an average moving speed of 55mph, but was mostly doing 62 on the interstate, and averaged 6.0 miles per kwh (or 202.2 mpge!) I'm presently transferring and compiling footage from those trips, and if weather permits, I'm going to do a city circuit on 35 & 40 mph roads within the i485 loop in Charlotte. I should have a few of my usual horrible videos posted in a few days.

 

[MrDRMorgan]

Am I reading your numbers correctly?

Therefore, 9.1 kWh / 64% = 14.2 kWh calculated battery capacity. This number will drop if your starting SOC was less than 100%.

Morgan, you are correct. This is what happens when I use the calculator in my head.

I did another run with an average moving speed of 55mph, but was mostly doing 62 on the interstate, and averaged 6.0 miles per kwh (or 202.2 mpge!) I'm presently transferring and compiling footage from those trips, and if weather permits, I'm going to do a city circuit on 35 & 40 mph roads within the i485 loop in Charlotte. I should have a few of my usual horrible videos posted in a few days.

..

My First Spark EV was a leased 2015 2LT with DCFC. For three years I used the data from the Energy Information screen to estimate my battery capacity which was 18.8 kWh at 1414 miles and 15.5 kWh at 26,508 miles. In between these dates was a total of 163 measurements. The linear trend line showed a definite decline in battery capacity over time - just as I have seen for my 2014 and 2016 Spark EVs.

 

[TheLondonBroiler]

City Range Test (25-45mph roads) 92.77 miles traveled, and it rained a fair amount. When I plugged into the charger it said I was at 3% (a full charge took less than 20 min )

Edit: I should put this here too

 

[NORTON]

...I did another run with an average moving speed of 55mph, but was mostly doing 62 on the interstate, and averaged 6.0 miles per kwh ... I'm going to do a city circuit on 35 & 40 mph roads within the i485 loop in Charlotte. ....

Does how gently you drive have any impact on the battery pack capacity numbers?
It would seem to me the kWh used, is kWh used, no matter how fast you use it.

You must be popular going 62 mph on the interstate.

And just to clarify, are the energy screen calculated numbers the same as TorquePro numbers?

Here's today's numbers: 83814, 8-7-20, 61%, 10.7, = 17.54kWh
With no AC, but the usual 70-80 mph for 85% of it, on my morning commute, it displayed at shutdown 22.9 miles @ 3.9mile/kWh.
And this is uphill about 200'!

 

[TheLondonBroiler]

Does how gently you drive have any impact on the battery pack capacity numbers?
It would seem to me the kWh used, is kWh used, no matter how fast you use it.

You must be popular going 62 mph on the interstate.

And just to clarify, are the energy screen calculated numbers the same as TorquePro numbers?

Theoretically, there should be "heat loss" if you're pulling a lot of power constantly, but I'm starting to think that it's really not that much of an issue with the Spark after the EXTENSIVE testing I did yesterday.

Where I did my 62mph/100kph test, it was on sections of i85 & i77 that are 55 & 60mph. That being said, I was most definitely in the two far right lanes the whole time.

In my city test that I completed not even 12 hours ago ( 92.7 miles and around 3 hours of driving later), with apparently 97% battery used according to Torque Pro and the fast charger (99% according to the energy usage screen), the energy usage screen said that 13.3kwh was used. Extrapolating that extra 3% gives a calculated/theoretical 13.7kwh capacity, compared to Torque Pro's 13.3kwh.

 

[MrDRMorgan]

Has anyone started looking for or found a business that will rebuild the battery in a Spark EV?

 

[TheLondonBroiler]

Has anyone started looking for or found a business that will rebuild the battery in a Spark EV?

I've thought about this a lot. I think it's likely that 30kwh could be fit in the pack, with the improvements that have been made in power density (take the leaf as a somewhat relevant example, which went from 24 to 40kwh in the same space). The challenge IMO is building a solid or "Automotive Grade" liquid cooled replacement pack and one that is going to stand up well to Spark's unusual fast charge and discharge characteristics.

With only 7,000 spark owners (for comparison there are hundreds of thousands of LEAF owners, many with even more significantly degraded packs, with little to no aftermarket solutions), I think it's unlikely this will ever happen. For the cost of a used Spark and theoretical upgraded battery, your likely knocking on, if not exceeding the cost of a newer but used Bolt EV (which also gives you 32amp AC charging, a fifth seat/more space, faster acceleration, single size rims/tires, better infotainment, etc). All that being said, I love the Spark and hope someone offers a solid but affordable option to Spark owners.

 

[MrDRMorgan]

Has anyone started looking for or found a business that will rebuild the battery in a Spark EV?

I've thought about this a lot. I think it's likely that 30kwh could be fit in the pack, with the improvements that have been made in power density (take the leaf as a somewhat relevant example, which went from 24 to 40kwh in the same space). The challenge IMO is building a solid or "Automotive Grade" liquid cooled replacement pack and one that is going to stand up well to Spark's unusual fast charge and discharge characteristics.

With only 7,000 spark owners (for comparison there are hundreds of thousands of LEAF owners, many with even more significantly degraded packs, with little to no aftermarket solutions), I think it's unlikely this will ever happen. For the cost of a used Spark and theoretical upgraded battery, your likely knocking on, if not exceeding the cost of a newer but used Bolt EV (which also gives you 32amp AC charging, a fifth seat/more space, faster acceleration, single size rims/tires, better infotainment, etc). All that being said, I love the Spark and hope someone offers a solid but affordable option to Spark owners.

I would have to agree. Unfortunately, I fear the Spark EV will become the first "throw away" vehicle. That decision point will be determined by the driver's range needs and how low the full charge GOM range has to get before the car becomes a lawn ornament.

I checked GM Parts Direct and the cost for just a new replacement battery for a 2014 Spark EV is $23,002! Add additional parts and labor and Wow!! The cost for just the battery for a 2015/6 Spark EV is $11,120.

Don't get me wrong! I love my Spark EVs and I will drive them into the ground. Most of my driving is around town so I have considerable life left in both cars. If the density of DCFC station locations gets better, my 2016 will have a lot of miles yet to go.

 

[SparkE]

Has anyone started looking for or found a business that will rebuild the battery in a Spark EV?

{...} For the cost of a used Spark and theoretical upgraded battery, your likely knocking on, if not exceeding the cost of a newer but used Bolt EV (which also gives you 32amp AC charging, a fifth seat/more space, faster acceleration, single size rims/tires, better infotainment, etc). {...}

A (2015/6) Spark EV weighs 2,866 lb and has 327 lb-ft of torque. 0-60 MPH in 7.2 seconds.

A 2018 Bolt EV weighs 3,563 lb and has 266 lb-ft of torque. 0-60 MPH in 6.3 sec

I am a bit confused. Maybe the Spark limits torque to the wheels at low speed? Because the lighter Spark with more torque should be faster to 60 than the Bolt.

 

[TheLondonBroiler]

I am a bit confused.

You need only watch the first 3 minutes.
https://youtu.be/APhRPSdmdmk

 

[ElDobro]

Has anyone started looking for or found a business that will rebuild the battery in a Spark EV?

I've thought about this a lot. I think it's likely that 30kwh could be fit in the pack, with the improvements that have been made in power density (take the leaf as a somewhat relevant example, which went from 24 to 40kwh in the same space). The challenge IMO is building a solid or "Automotive Grade" liquid cooled replacement pack and one that is going to stand up well to Spark's unusual fast charge and discharge characteristics.

With only 7,000 spark owners (for comparison there are hundreds of thousands of LEAF owners, many with even more significantly degraded packs, with little to no aftermarket solutions), I think it's unlikely this will ever happen. For the cost of a used Spark and theoretical upgraded battery, your likely knocking on, if not exceeding the cost of a newer but used Bolt EV (which also gives you 32amp AC charging, a fifth seat/more space, faster acceleration, single size rims/tires, better infotainment, etc). All that being said, I love the Spark and hope someone offers a solid but affordable option to Spark owners.

I would have to agree. Unfortunately, I fear the Spark EV will become the first "throw away" vehicle. That decision point will be determined by the driver's range needs and how low the full charge GOM range has to get before the car becomes a lawn ornament.

I checked GM Parts Direct and the cost for just a new replacement battery for a 2014 Spark EV is $23,002! Add additional parts and labor and Wow!! The cost for just the battery for a 2015/6 Spark EV is $11,120.

Don't get me wrong! I love my Spark EVs and I will drive them into the ground. Most of my driving is around town so I have considerable life left in both cars. If the density of DCFC station locations gets better, my 2016 will have a lot of miles yet to go.

You can't get a 2014 Spark battery. GM printed a bulletin that gives you a list of parts you need to adapt the 2015/16 battery to the 2014. That's the same bulletin that says you also need to use the 2015/16 rear shocks too.

 

[MrDRMorgan]

I've thought about this a lot. I think it's likely that 30kwh could be fit in the pack, with the improvements that have been made in power density (take the leaf as a somewhat relevant example, which went from 24 to 40kwh in the same space). The challenge IMO is building a solid or "Automotive Grade" liquid cooled replacement pack and one that is going to stand up well to Spark's unusual fast charge and discharge characteristics.

With only 7,000 spark owners (for comparison there are hundreds of thousands of LEAF owners, many with even more significantly degraded packs, with little to no aftermarket solutions), I think it's unlikely this will ever happen. For the cost of a used Spark and theoretical upgraded battery, your likely knocking on, if not exceeding the cost of a newer but used Bolt EV (which also gives you 32amp AC charging, a fifth seat/more space, faster acceleration, single size rims/tires, better infotainment, etc). All that being said, I love the Spark and hope someone offers a solid but affordable option to Spark owners.

I would have to agree. Unfortunately, I fear the Spark EV will become the first "throw away" vehicle. That decision point will be determined by the driver's range needs and how low the full charge GOM range has to get before the car becomes a lawn ornament.

I checked GM Parts Direct and the cost for just a new replacement battery for a 2014 Spark EV is $23,002! Add additional parts and labor and Wow!! The cost for just the battery for a 2015/6 Spark EV is $11,120.

Don't get me wrong! I love my Spark EVs and I will drive them into the ground. Most of my driving is around town so I have considerable life left in both cars. If the density of DCFC station locations gets better, my 2016 will have a lot of miles yet to go.

You can't get a 2014 Spark battery. GM printed a bulletin that gives you a list of parts you need to adapt the 2015/16 battery to the 2014. That's the same bulletin that says you also need to use the 2015/16 rear shocks too.

Do you have the bulletin number? Also, Paul Gipe on the Bolt forum has a great post regarding Bolt HV battery degradation. The Bolt battery looks to be very good with minimum degradation.