Bolt!

[cwerdna]

Even Nissan has only sold 78,510 nationwide in the same period. Nissan did build an infrastructure but where? Through their dealer network?

Unfortunately, many/most are installed at their dealers. And, often they're inaccessible after hours and when they were free, dealer usage policies were VERY YMMV.

There has been some other action and there was also http://www.bmwblog.com/2015/12/21/bmw-and-nissan-are-joining-forces-to-offer-public-dc-fast-charging/, more recently.

Fortunately, NRG EVgo seems to be moving forward on their own to build out a nice DCFC network.

The NRG EVgo DC FCs in California are due to a settlement w/the CPUC. See http://www.mychevysparkev.com/forum/viewtopic.php?p=7523#p7523. The image at http://www.mynissanleaf.com/viewtopic.php?t=15927 is dead but the YouTube video w/map still works.

As for GM, I don't think they owe us EVSEs any more than they owe us gas stations. Though GM would suck less if they at least had DCFC at their dealers. But not even BMW or VM is doing that.

The 24 kW http://www.bmwicharging.com/BMWiDCFastCharger is "BMW subsidized price for BMW Centers and authorized partners." Some BMW dealers have them. http://insideevs.com/crevier-bmw-installs-4-dc-fast-chargers-6-level-2-evses/ installed 4 over a year ago. Some Kia dealers have been installed dual-standard DC FCs even though they only sell a plug-in vehicle w/CHAdeMO.

There's also this involving BMW, VW and Chargepoint: https://transportevolved.com/2015/01/22/bmw-vw-charge-point-announce-ccs-fast-charging-corridors-east-west-coast-u-s/.

 

[MrDRMorgan]

cwercna: The NRG EVgo DC FCs in California are due to a settlement w/the CPUC. See http://www.mychevysparkev.com/forum/viewtopic.php?p=7523#p7523. The image at http://www.mynissanleaf.com/viewtopic.php?t=15927 is dead but the YouTube video w/map still works.

Thanks. I was aware of NRG's settlement with the CPUC. I make heavy use of NRG EVgo's DCFC stations when I can but their billing system needs serious improvement and it is very difficult to get any usage information out of them. Compare that to Greenlots. Greenlots posts your usage information as soon as you disconnect from the charger and it is immediately available to view on their mobile APP.

I would like to see the EV charging infrastructure road map that shows how the State of California plans to meet the usage demand of the 1.5 million ZEVs Governor Brown wants on California's roads by 2025. In SB-350, the California utilities are tasked with the electrification of the transportation system. However, if the Idaho National Laboratory report I mentioned earlier is what the utilities will follow, then most of the charging infrastructure will be found at home and at work with DCFC stations located at charging "hot spots" To me, this does not bid well for long distance EV driving needs.

As I read PlugShare comments, I am now starting to see comments about charger access delays due to having to wait for a spot, poor charging "etiquette", and many other gripes. What is it going to happen when the number of ZEVs on the road increases dramatically? I did find one charging bright spot. I am starting to see NRG EVgo locations with two or more combo stations. One in Fremont, CA has 4! In Manteca where I live, we have at least 10 Spark EVs running around town but we do not have a single L2 or DCFC public charging location. We do, however, have a Tesla charging station and it has 8 charging locations!

 

[SparkevBlogspot]

As I read PlugShare comments, I am now starting to see comments about charger access delays due to having to wait for a spot, poor charging "etiquette", and many other gripes. What is it going to happen when the number of ZEVs on the road increases dramatically?

Most of the wait is due to Leaf (and some BMW i3) getting free charge. They get 2 years of free 30 minutes charging, so they use DCFC full 30 minutes. Some slow charging Leaf even plug in for second (or third) 30 minute session, something that's not possible with SparkEV. Many even skip charging at home (costs money) and use DCFC (free). I've seen many use DCFC even when they don't need it. Without free charging, I estimate 80% reduction in waiting and eliminate bad etiquette.

Just the other day, a lady was starting i3 DCFC with 70% in battery. Since I was next in line, I commented that she'll be quick. Her response? She wanted all 30 minutes, because it's free! When I said she doesn't need 30 minutes, but only 5 minutes (or less) for 80%, and that I only need 10 minutes to get over the hill to get home, she was gracious enough to let me go ahead for 10 minutes, but if I got there 2 minutes later after she'd gone to market, I'd be waiting full 30 minutes just to get over the hill to get home.

From my encounters, BMW i3 drivers are far more gracious than Leaf drivers. Many leaf drivers could care less that they're charging at 2kW using 50kW dual head charger blocking CCS from charging when perfectly working Chademo charger was sitting empty when they first pulled in.

http://sparkev.blogspot.com/2015/10/jerks-all-around-us-iced-leafed.html

They have no idea how slowly Leaf charges. I try to educate them with this blog post.

http://sparkev.blogspot.com/2015/10/love-letter-to-nissan-leaf-dcfc-users.html

Conversely, it seems many SparkEV drivers have no idea how quickly SparkEV charges, something that we should be very proud of for not making others wait (or wait as long).

http://sparkev.blogspot.com/2015/12/sparkev-is-quickest-charging-ev-in-world.html

 

[nozferatu]

Nope, has nothing to do w/how much I like or don't like GM. Just look at their actions that I've already talked about over and over.

No actually I do think you don't like GM and that's fine. But what makes you think it's OK for Nissan to dictate everyone's charging standard and leave it up to them? Uh...no thanks to a monopoly. Look at the actions of ALL manufacturers...they are all jostling their own positions in this game and rightly so...that's how improvements occur and how technology development rates increase...through competition. What you're proposing is taking us backwards.

As far as Tesla goes, Tesla is a premium car company that charges an arm and leg for a high range EV luxury car. Their bread and butter are EVs...their only models are EVs...so yea...a company dedicated ONLY to EVs should offer their own charging practices. And they did so because A) they wanted to keep the entire tech in-house at first and B) they realized they couldn't make a high range EV with low current charging systems. No one would would wait 10 hours for their Tesla to charge while on a 300 mile road trip.

Maybe Tesla should have listened to your advice and stuck with CHAdeMO yes?

 

[cwerdna]

Nope, has nothing to do w/how much I like or don't like GM. Just look at their actions that I've already talked about over and over.

As far as Tesla goes, Tesla is a premium car company that charges an arm and leg for a high range EV luxury car. ...
Maybe Tesla should have listened to your advice and stuck with CHAdeMO yes?

No, but as I've said many times already, Tesla actually put wood behind their arrow. I may not like the fact that they came up with an additional "standard", but at least they're damned serious about it and have a TON of infrastructure properly deployed unlike GM who won't fund it (http://www.greencarreports.com/news/1101774_gm-wont-fund-ccs-fast-charging-sites-for-2017-chevy-bolt-ev, which I posted on page 1 of this thread). And, their standard is definitely better than CHAdeMO.

Maybe GM will come around, someday?

But hey... it "helps" that Tesla is far outspending their revenue, to the tune of $2.5 billion in accumulated net losses so far.

Back to the Bolt, multiple media sources are reporting the Chevy Bolt has 238 mile range on the EPA test. Wow!

http://www.greencarreports.com/news...r-238-mile-epa-range-rating-119-mpge-combined
http://www.autoblog.com/2016/09/13/chevy-bolt-ev-238-mile-range/

Assuming there wasn't some error in conducting the test (I'd assume there's no way GM would want to cheat on this since they'd probably get found out fairly quickly), this is a very impressive number. If it turns out to be reasonably reliable, most of the other BEVs will really need to up their game or face sharply tanking sales.

 

[SparkieVee]

If anyone is in the Santa Monica area, their Alt Car Expo has a Bolt on display. Sadly it is locked, but at least it's not behind ropes so you can stick your nose right up to the glass. It will be there 10-5 on Saturday, 9/17. You can also look at and drive most of the currently available EVs. http://www.altcarexpo.com/

After seeing it my wife decided that instead of another Spark when our lease is up in two weeks, we're waiting for the Bolt.

 

[Leafless]

If anyone is in the Santa Monica area, their Alt Car Expo has a Bolt on display. Sadly it is locked, but at least it's not behind ropes so you can stick your nose right up to the glass. It will be there 10-5 on Saturday, 9/17. You can also look at and drive most of the currently available EVs. http://www.altcarexpo.com/

After seeing it my wife decided that instead of another Spark when our lease is up in two weeks, we're waiting for the Bolt.

Right... the Bolt was on display at Exposition Park in L.A. (near the Coliseum) on September 11. Very nice package. I can see one in our future garage, parked next to the Spark EV. Spark for local driving; Bolt for the longer local driving; and we will keep our relatively low mileage Honda Pilot for those longer trips where interim charging is not a practical option.

 

[cwerdna]

http://www.chevrolet.com/bolt-ev-electric-vehicle.html now confirms a starting MSRP of $37,495. http://media.chevrolet.com/media/us/en/chevrolet/news.detail.html/content/Pages/news/us/en/2016/sep/0920-bolt-pricing.html says that includes destination charge.

http://www.chevrolet.com/content/dam/Chevrolet/northamerica/usa/nscwebsite/en/Home/Vehicles/Cars/2017_Bolt_Reveal/model_overview/02_Pdf/bolt-ev-trims-comparison-081016.pdf has the trim level comparison.

I'm surprised there's been so little chatter about the car here. http://www.mynissanleaf.com/viewtopic.php?f=10&t=18907&start=580 has had about 25 pages of chatter between Feb 2016 posts and now vs. the crickets here.

 

[SparkevBlogspot]

I'm surprised there's been so little chatter about the car here. http://www.mynissanleaf.com/viewtopic.php?f=10&t=18907&start=580 has had about 25 pages of chatter between Feb 2016 posts and now vs. the crickets here.

I think it's due to difference in demographics. Leaf is 5 seat and cost about $28K after tax credit. If extra $2K triples the range, it is something to get very excited about. Given that Leaf is lousy in performance and lousy in battery, Bolt offers whole lot more bang for the buck.

SparkEV is $18K post tax credit, and it's a different class. Sure, longer range and bit better performance would be nice, but given how SparkEV wants to shred the tires on acceleration already, it's probably adequate for most. $12K could buy whole lot of stuff, including a used gasser SUV to use for longer trips. And the battery is pretty damn fine, maybe even better than Bolt.

Speaking of, I wish Chevy offered smaller battery Bolt for lower cost. At 30 kWh for $22K post tax credit, it'd kill many gas cars in price range, especially the Prius, Ioniq (heard it's a dog in performance like Leaf), maybe even some Tesla 3. Then SparkEV driver might get bit more excited.

 

[MrDRMorgan]

As a very satisfied Spark EV driver, I just do not see what the Bolt, or any other BEV, can offer that would cause me to switch. A Spark EV with the quick-charge option, like my 2015 Spark EV, can easily meet 85-90% of my local driving needs. I have even ventured out as far as 150 miles away from home without any problem by using the available quick-chargers. If I need to drive even longer distances, I can either use my 17 year-old pickup truck or rent a car. Even my 2014 Spark EV, without the quick-charge option, has not caused me any range concerns. I learned the car's limits and how to work with them and I am constantly getting full-charge range values of 103-110 miles. As more and more Spark EVs come off of lease, I believe there are going to be many great deals available. I might even snap one up.

My biggest concern has nothing to do with EVs. Instead, I am greatly concerned by the inconsiderate attitude of some ICE, PHEV and PEV idiot drivers. These idiots seem to think the quick-charge parking spots are theirs to park in as they please and for as long as they want. Others fake charging by hooking up but not charging just to get the parking spot. There seems to be no consideration for those drivers who have a real need to gain access to the chargers in order to charge their EV and complete their trip. Even when parking restrictions are clearly posted, these idiots ignore the law. Unless this is corrected quickly, the additional EVs coming into public use will only make the charger access problem worse.

 

[cwerdna]

I'm surprised there's been so little chatter about the car here. http://www.mynissanleaf.com/viewtopic.php?f=10&t=18907&start=580 has had about 25 pages of chatter between Feb 2016 posts and now vs. the crickets here.

I think it's due to difference in demographics. Leaf is 5 seat and cost about $28K after tax credit. If extra $2K triples the range, it is something to get very excited about.
...
SparkEV is $18K post tax credit, and it's a different class.

Re: your pricing, huh?

Per http://www.nissanusa.com/electric-cars/leaf/versions-specs/version.s.html, MSRP on Leaf S starts at $29,010 vs. Spark EV of $25,120 at http://www.chevrolet.com/spark-ev-electric-vehicle.html. $29,010 - $7,500 = $21,510.

There seem to be pretty big incentives of Leaf now. Example: http://www.boardwalknissan.com/new-nissan-specials.htm currently advertises:

Up to $6,000 Total Savings
[1] $4,000 NMAC Cash only available when you finance through NMAC. Subject to credit approval.
$4,000 NMAC Cash available on 2016 LEAF . NMAC Cash valid 09/07/2016 through 10/03/2016. Available when you finance through NMAC. Subject to credit approval. Down payment may be required. Available on purchase. Must take delivery from new dealer stock. See dealer for details. Subject to residency restrictions.
[2] 2016 LEAF $2,000 Bonus Cash.
$2,000 Bonus Cash available on 2016 LEAF . Bonus Cash valid 09/07/2016 through 10/03/2016. Down payment may be required. Available on lease and purchase. Must take delivery from new dealer stock. See dealer for details. Subject to residency restrictions.

FWIW, over at "TMC" (which is admittedly VERY active), from https://teslamotorsclub.com/tmc/threads/chevy-bolt-200-mile-range-for-30k-base-price-after-incentive.40728/page-99 until the end, there's been about 40 pages of activity on the Bolt there if you start from Feb 2016.

 

[cwerdna]

My biggest concern has nothing to do with EVs. Instead, I am greatly concerned by the inconsiderate attitude of some ICE, PHEV and PEV idiot drivers. These idiots seem to think the quick-charge parking spots are theirs to park in as they please and for as long as they want. Others fake charging by hooking up but not charging just to get the parking spot. There seems to be no consideration for those drivers who have a real need to gain access to the chargers in order to charge their EV and complete their trip. Even when parking restrictions are clearly posted, these idiots ignore the law. Unless this is corrected quickly, the additional EVs coming into public use will only make the charger access problem worse.

You can shame them at https://www.facebook.com/groups/iceholes.ev/ and https://www.facebook.com/groups/evassholes.

Also, leave notes on these vehicles who are blocking the spots. If possible (proper signage is required), get them ticketed via CA AB 475. Get security to flag these vehicles, assuming they'll do something about it. Try to get the property owners/owners of the DC FC to put up good signage (e.g. EV charging only, time limit ____, etc.) and enforce towing of blocking vehicles.

If enough a-holes get ticketed and towed, perhaps they'll think twice about blocking such spots.

 

[SparkevBlogspot]

MSRP on Leaf S starts at $29,010

You're talking about base Leaf with no DCFC, which I think is $1.2K option. Also, I doubt people who choose base Leaf S when SV/SL with 110 miles range is available will take much interest in Bolt. Much of the interest comes from people who can afford to pay $35K+ SV/SL with longer range, which Bolt offers significantly more bang for the buck.

Same applies to Tesla, eGolf, SoulEV, FocusEV, etc. etc. For about the same money (or much less in case of Tesla), you get so much more bang with Bolt.

But many people who chose to drive iMiev, SmartED, SparkEV would not take as much interest in much higher price. As mentioned, $12K could buy a whole lot of stuff, or 10 years of food budget for one person.

In case of SparkEV, there are sales in autotrader.com that show $18K before subsidy. Many bought the car close to $11K post subsidy. That kind of bargain isn't likely with Bolt, and $19K could buy whole lot more, maybe even 2 decent used cars in addition to SparkEV.

 

[cwerdna]

MSRP on Leaf S starts at $29,010

You're talking about base Leaf with no DCFC, which I think is $1.2K option. Also, I doubt people who choose base Leaf S when SV/SL with 110 miles range is available will take much interest in Bolt. Much of the interest comes from people who can afford to pay $35K+ SV/SL with longer range, which Bolt offers significantly more bang for the buck.

The 30 kWh Leaf SV and SL w/107 mile EPA range didn't exist until model year 2016. Before that, Leafs were only 24 kWh, like the 2016 Leaf S. Yes, the base S trim Leaf doesn't come w/CHAdeMO inlet but the base Spark EV doesn't come w/DC FC inlet either.

I can't speak to the "3.6 kW" or whatever OBC on the base '13+ Leaf S, but the "3.3 kW" OBC on the '11 and '12 Leafs pull about 3.7 to 3.8 kW (3.3 seems to refer to energy making it to the battery) from the wall at 208 volts while then Gen 1 Volts and Spark EVs I've plugged in only pull about 3.1 kW on the same EVSEs.

 

[SparkE]

MSRP on Leaf S starts at $29,010

You're talking about base Leaf with no DCFC, which I think is $1.2K option. Also, I doubt people who choose base Leaf S when SV/SL with 110 miles range is available will take much interest in Bolt. Much of the interest comes from people who can afford to pay $35K+ SV/SL with longer range, which Bolt offers significantly more bang for the buck.

The 30 kWh Leaf SV and SL w/107 mile EPA range didn't exist until model year 2016. Before that, Leafs were only 24 kWh, like the 2016 Leaf S. Yes, the base S trim Leaf doesn't come w/CHAdeMO inlet but the base Spark EV doesn't come w/DC FC inlet either.

I can't speak to the "3.6 kW" or whatever OBC on the base '13+ Leaf S, but the "3.3 kW" OBC on the '11 and '12 Leafs pull about 3.7 to 3.8 kW (3.3 seems to refer to energy making it to the battery) from the wall at 208 volts while then Gen 1 Volts and Spark EVs I've plugged in only pull about 3.1 kW on the same EVSEs.

None of which (the 100+ mi range LEAF not available before a year ago, or the standard charging rate of the base LEAF or the Spark) has anything to do with 'why aren't you talking about the Bolt very much here?' Why change your question mid-stream?

 

[SparkevBlogspot]

Before that, Leafs were only 24 kWh, like the 2016 Leaf S.

Yes, but back then, you didn't have any choice other than Leaf 24 kWh or Tesla. People who would've spent $30K still had to buy 24 kWh model. Also, I think even base Leaf S used to be more expensive.

Yes, the base S trim Leaf doesn't come w/CHAdeMO inlet but the base Spark EV doesn't come w/DC FC inlet either.

I'm pointing out that $750 extra for DCFC on SparkEV is still well below $20K post subsidy. Leaf S with DCFC is over $20K post subsidy. If you're opting for Leaf S over SparkEV, there's something extra that you want that require more money, and you're more likely to buy more expensive cars to get that extra.

Basically it comes down to what did you spend to get what. For SparkEV, tiny 4 seater about 18K. For Leaf, 5 seat $25K. Had SparkEV been $25K post subsidy, I doubt many would've bought it; but for those who had, Bolt would generate significant buzz.

But if Bolt is priced much less (ie, about $20K) by reducing the battery to half (30 kWh) as an option, that will probably generate lots of buzz in SparkEV circles. In fact, that could pretty much kill all upcoming bit-over-100-miles EV like eGolf, FocusEV, etc.

As for L2 charging, I think you posted by mistake? Not sure where you're going with that.

 

[SparkE]

Yes, his post was a huge mistake.

 

[MrDRMorgan]

Dublin Chevrolet in Dublin, CA has a large number of 2016 Spark EV 2LT vehicles with the quick charge option on sale for $19,793 BEFORE REBATES and TAX CREDITS.

 

[cwerdna]

None of which (the 100+ mi range LEAF not available before a year ago, or the standard charging rate of the base LEAF or the Spark) has anything to do with 'why aren't you talking about the Bolt very much here?' Why change your question mid-stream?

Because SparkevBlogspot brought up supposed "reasons" for the lack of Bolt chatter here.

Now that I thought about it a bit more, the below are likely some contributing reasons why there isn't much Bolt chatter here vs. MNL.

MNL has 17,808 users vs. 862 on this forum. Leaf is a 50 state vehicle vs. the 3-state Spark EV. Leaf has a far larger installed base besides having been out significantly longer.

Also, I think even base Leaf S used to be more expensive.

Not in terms of MSRP.

Leaf S began at $28,200 per http://nissannews.com/en-US/nissan/usa/presskits/us-2013-nissan-leaf-press-kit. For model year 2016 it is $29,010 per http://nissannews.com/en-US/nissan/usa/presskits/us-2016-nissan-leaf-press-kit.

Leaf is 5 seat and cost about $28K after tax credit.

Incorrect.

I'm pointing out that $750 extra for DCFC on SparkEV is still well below $20K post subsidy. Leaf S with DCFC is over $20K post subsidy. If you're opting for Leaf S over SparkEV, there's something extra that you want that require more money, and you're more likely to buy more expensive cars to get that extra.

Basically it comes down to what did you spend to get what. For SparkEV, tiny 4 seater about 18K. For Leaf, 5 seat $25K.

I'm not sure what you mean by "For Leaf, 5 seat $25K." $29,010 - $7500 = $21,150, not $25K.

The OBC wattage chatter came up because you said "$35K+ SV/SL with longer range". Not only do the '16 SV and SL have longer range, besides having more standard or optional equipment (e.g. nav system, better stereo, 4 camera Around View Monitor, leather interior, etc.), they have both have 6.6 kW OBCs and CHAdeMO included. You can't get any higher wattage OBC on the Spark EV.

That said, whenever the Bolt ships and if it meets the prices they've announced, I readily admit that Leaf sales will most likely plummet unless their prices are dropped significantly or big incentives are put on them or until Nissan puts out something w/similar range.

200+ mile range in a pure EV at $37.5K before tax credit by end of 2016 is a game changer.

 

[Taxman]

Dublin Chevrolet in Dublin, CA has a large number of 2016 Spark EV 2LT vehicles with the quick charge option on sale for $19,793 BEFORE REBATES and TAX CREDITS.

They have 61 Spark EVs in stock?
That's about equal to the total available in Oregon+Maryland.

But you're wrong on the price.
It's before tax credits, not before rebates.
But still, if you can buy for $20k and if you qualify for both the $7500 federal credit and the $2500 CA credit, that's cheaper than a used one. (or are the used ones suddenly worth $7-8k now?)

Total MSRP Before All Offers $27,135
Dealer Discount - $3,000
Sales Price $24,135
16% of MSRP Cash Back - $4,342
Net Sale Price $19,793

Dealer discounts of $3k are common in CA and MD, either I'm having bad luck or they're only around $2k in OR.