Bolt!

[MrDRMorgan]

Dublin Chevrolet in Dublin, CA has a large number of 2016 Spark EV 2LT vehicles with the quick charge option on sale for $19,793 BEFORE REBATES and TAX CREDITS.

They have 61 Spark EVs in stock?
That's about equal to the total available in Oregon+Maryland.

But you're wrong on the price.
It's before tax credits, not before rebates.
But still, if you can buy for $20k and if you qualify for both the $7500 federal credit and the $2500 CA credit, that's cheaper than a used one. (or are the used ones suddenly worth $7-8k now?)

Total MSRP Before All Offers $27,135
Dealer Discount - $3,000
Sales Price $24,135
16% of MSRP Cash Back - $4,342
Net Sale Price $19,793

Dealer discounts of $3k are common in CA and MD, either I'm having bad luck or they're only around $2k in OR.

By rebates I meant the California Clean Air Rebate of $2500 and, if you lived in San Joaquin County, an additional clean air rebate of $3000. Other counties in California may have similar county rebates too. So, if you lived in San Joaquin County, subtracting the 2 clean air rebates, the net cost would be $14,293. There would be additional fees for sales tax on the net selling price of $19,793, DMV license fees, doc prep fees, etc. that the dealer would also add on. Plus, you could claim some or all of the federal tax credit up to $7500 depending on your 2016 federal tax liability. [/code]

 

[SparkevBlogspot]

MNL has 17,808 users vs. 862 on this forum.

That is part of the reason. But I suspect bigger reason is that Bolt isn't as appealing to SparkEV as Leaf for reasons discussed before. I'll summarize below.

1) People who bought Leaf early had no choice. It's either $23K-28K Leaf or $60K Tesla, even if they could afford $30K for better car. For them, Bolt is hugely exciting.

2) People who bought SV/SL for longer range at $25K (or $28K), Bolt offers significantly more bang for the buck. Looking at used car market, Leaf SV model is overwhelming majority even for 24 kWh models; I describe this in my blog when researching SparkEV pricing and depreciation. That tells me that the majority of Leaf buyers could've bought $30K Bolt if given a choice, which is why they are so excited.

http://sparkev.blogspot.com/2016/02/sparkev-pricing-and-depreciation.html

3) People who bought S with or without DCFC are price conscious, and Bolt probably doesn't hold as much fancy as above two. But Bolt with much more performance and 5 seats like Leaf, it would hold some interest.

4) People who bought SparkEV had choice of myriad of other similar range EV at higher price. For them, 4 seats work fine for $18K (or $16K now that the rebate is back). Also, SparkEV isn't so bad in acceleration. Rather, some (or just me) find it appealing that tiny car can perform so well, and take pride in that it's the quickest car in the world for its price. That isn't true with Bolt or Leaf or any other than Tesla with Ludicrous.

5) New point here is that SparkEV is newer relative to Leaf. There are lots of used Leaf drivers just itching to upgrade where as not as many used SparkEV drivers who's been wringing their hands to upgrade. Indeed, leases are just now coming due, and upgrade is ways off for most SparkEV.

I'm not sure what you mean by "For Leaf, 5 seat $25K." $29,010 - $7500 = $21,150, not $25K.

I mean SV/SL. I have to wonder how much interest for Bolt is there for people who bought base Leaf S when SV/SL with much longer range is available. I suspect there's only just bit more excitement than SparkEV crowd.

The OBC wattage chatter came up because you said "$35K+ SV/SL with longer range"

I see now. And that is exactly what I'm talking about. Those people chose to upgrade from base to price close to what Bolt would cost. They are precisely the people who would get very excited about Bolt. And based on used car market, I suspect they are the majority.

That said, whenever the Bolt ships and if it meets the prices they've announced, I readily admit that Leaf sales will most likely plummet

Yeah, this is the sad part. Though I hate Nissan for their stupid "no charge to piss people off" program (aka, NCTC), I appreciate that they had the guts to jump start EV 2.0 era. But they should come up with better cars than rely on NCTC stupidity. Hopefully, next gen Leaf will be out and better than all cars in their price range and not need stupid program like NCTC.

 

[SparkE]

Why there's not much Bolt chatter on this forum? Because the first page of this forum links directly to the Bolt forum. Anybody really interested in the Bolt would follow the link and go to the Bolt forum, which has been up for over a year and a half.

 

[NORTON]

......Though I hate Nissan for their stupid "no charge to piss people off" program (aka, NCTC), I appreciate that they had the guts to jump start EV 2.0 era. ....

How can you hate 'FREE' ? I too appreciate Nissan's contribution to the EV future.
This is what you see on the 15 DCFC units spread out around the KC metro area:


I've seen Tesla's using these with a Chademo adapter, Leaf's and me. Small audience in this area. The idea, I assume, is "If you build it, they will come."

By using these as needed on weekends and for airport runs, but I mostly charge at an L2 across from where I work, I have been using my Spark EV exclusively for about a year.
That is over 21k miles since I bought it, mostly for free. I plug in at home during the dead of winter. That was about $35 worth last season.

I know both sides of this debate. I take the 'FREE' side. These ARE the glory days of EV driving! Enjoy them while you can, I say !!

Once coming home from a vacation I stopped at the nearest DCFC to the airport to find this:


So I feel your pain !! :lol:

This is incredible for KC. Was there an EV Geek Club meeting and I wasn't invited?
I rarely see another EV at a DCFC. The Tesla was at 35% so it was there for a while. The iMiEV has DCFC capablilty. The four EV's in a row where plugged in to L2's, one of them was me.
I took this pic, walked around looking at the various displays and then drove down the road to the next DCFC about 5 miles away.

And to tie in this thread,, Hopefully Bolt owners can get in on this Gravy Train before the free part is over! : http://www.kcpl.com/about-kcpl/environmental-focus/clean-charge-network

I wonder when Bolts will be available locally? Any guesses?

 

[SparkE]

......Though I hate Nissan for their stupid "no charge to piss people off" program (aka, NCTC), I appreciate that they had the guts to jump start EV 2.0 era. ....

How can you hate 'FREE' ? I too appreciate Nissan's contribution to the EV future.

I can hate the fact that the 'free fill' *card* causes lines at the DCFC chargers that I use, filled by people who are at over 70% SoC, simply to keep their battery charged up. It means that when people like me go to use DCFC because we *need* a quick charge (SoC under 30%) we are faced with a long wait. Plus, the people in line tend to try to fill to 96%+, because it's 'free', also slowing down the line (since the rate of charge drops very quickly once SoC is passes 80%). I'd have no problem with 'free' level-2 charging - it's the lines at the DCFCs that are a pain in the butt. People trying to save $1.72 blocking people who NEED a charge to get where they are going.

There are free *chargers* around where I live, but you know what you are in for if you try to use one - potentially a long wait. You *choose*. When you go to a PAY site for a quick fill to get to where you are going and you can't fill, that's a bother. And for some reason, it seems to be always the people in LEAFs that insist on filling up to over 95% at the fast charger (even tho their batteries are the ones the most damaged by over-quick-charging because they don't have active thermal temp control).

 

[SparkE]

Yeah, this is the sad part. Though I hate Nissan for their stupid "no charge to piss people off" program (aka, NCTC), I appreciate that they had the guts to jump start EV 2.0 era. But they should come up with better cars than rely on NCTC stupidity. Hopefully, next gen Leaf will be out and better than all cars in their price range and not need stupid program like NCTC.

Well, hopefully they can roll out a program that give free electricity until 82% SoC - then it's $1.75 / kWh. That would solve just about all of my problems with these free card programs (plural - there are several - it's just that there are more LEAFs than other cars).

 

[SparkE]

Why there's not much Bolt chatter on this forum? Because the first page of this forum links directly to the Bolt forum. Anybody really interested in the Bolt would follow the link and go to the Bolt forum, which has been up for over a year and a half.

I notice that the Bolt link at the top of this forum has "Total redirects: 6140" .

 

[NORTON]

...
Well, hopefully they can roll out a program that give free electricity until 82% SoC - then it's $1.75 / kWh. That would solve just about all of my problems with these free card programs .....

Excellent idea!!
It sounds like there is no other way to educate Leaf owners and clue them into EV Etiquette.
I personally rarely wait for 80% SOC. I have places to go !!

 

[Sparkler]

My Spark does not slow down till it hits 90% (on the one DCFC that has voltage and current displays in Benicia). The 80% "rule" only applies to air-cooled batteries, like Leaf. IMO.

Also, the few times I did stop @ 80-85% I noticed that I got error messages about stabilitrak and/or power steering, most likely due to the excess heat from fast charging affecting those systems temp sensors.

When letting the car finish tapering off (again, from 90% to 100%, not 80%) I don't have that problem as the heat also tapers off and has time to dissipate.

The rule should be to take only what you need to get to where you are going, especially if there are others waiting. That said, I have never had anyone waiting for me to finish...

 

[67goat]

^^^^^

I've only had to wait a few times and I use QC at least once a week. I do charge to 100%, but I only use QC on long trips and cannot currently charge at home, so I have to make sure I can make it to work the next day. That being said, I rarely have somebody waiting for me.

If anybody does pull up, they usually are in a leaf and try to take the Chademo cord and plug it in. I then have to explain it is not two chargers, just two cords. They usually drive off instead of wait.

I did have a leaf come up to me and complain once while I was at the ChargePoint HQ. They had two DCFC stations, but the CCS only station had a readout that said for employees only, so I plugged in to the dual head station. The leaf driver was upset that I wasn't using the CCS only station. I told hm it said for employees only. He said they all said that. To which I replied that it was in fact the only station that said that. The director of marketing came out and talked to me. He said if it happened again, I should tell the other driver to stuff it. The CCS only station only had employee pricing (which is way higher than consumer pricing), it wasn't set up for customers at all, and even if it was it was only a 25kw station so it would take longer and cost more.

Other than that, I've had pretty good luck (except at that big mall over in the Bay Area, the Chargers there are always full with cars no longer trying, but since the stations are in a parking garage, there is no way to pull up and unplug a finished vehicle unless the timing is perfect).

-------------------

As for the Bolt, had it been available when I needed a new car, I would have jumped on it in a second. However, the extended range is not enough for me to take on a second car payment. Maybe in a year or two when some low mileage used ones are on the market.

 

[MrDRMorgan]

^^^^^

I've only had to wait a few times and I use QC at least once a week. I do charge to 100%, but I only use QC on long trips and cannot currently charge at home, so I have to make sure I can make it to work the next day. That being said, I rarely have somebody waiting for me.

If anybody does pull up, they usually are in a leaf and try to take the Chademo cord and plug it in. I then have to explain it is not two chargers, just two cords. They usually drive off instead of wait.

I did have a leaf come up to me and complain once while I was at the ChargePoint HQ. They had two DCFC stations, but the CCS only station had a readout that said for employees only, so I plugged in to the dual head station. The leaf driver was upset that I wasn't using the CCS only station. I told hm it said for employees only. He said they all said that. To which I replied that it was in fact the only station that said that. The director of marketing came out and talked to me. He said if it happened again, I should tell the other driver to stuff it. The CCS only station only had employee pricing (which is way higher than consumer pricing), it wasn't set up for customers at all, and even if it was it was only a 25kw station so it would take longer and cost more.

Other than that, I've had pretty good luck (except at that big mall over in the Bay Area, the Chargers there are always full with cars no longer trying, but since the stations are in a parking garage, there is no way to pull up and unplug a finished vehicle unless the timing is perfect).

-------------------

As for the Bolt, had it been available when I needed a new car, I would have jumped on it in a second. However, the extended range is not enough for me to take on a second car payment. Maybe in a year or two when some low mileage used ones are on the market.

Check this out from ChargePoint. http://www.greencarreports.com/news/1106303_chargepoint-adds-wait-list-feature-for-electric-car-charging-stations

 

[SparkevBlogspot]

The 80% "rule" only applies to air-cooled batteries, like Leaf. IMO.

24 kWh Leaf (which is almost all of them) starts to slow at 60%, even sooner if the weather is hot. Scroll down in this blog post where a Leaf driver measured his charging speed on moderate summer night and plotted power.

http://sparkev.blogspot.com/2015/10/love-letter-to-nissan-leaf-dcfc-users.html

SparkEV does slow down from 50 kW starting at 80%. But if you're using 25 kW charger, it won't slow down until 90% or more.

Also, the few times I did stop @ 80-85% I noticed that I got error messages about stabilitrak and/or power steering, most likely due to the excess heat from fast charging affecting those systems temp sensors.

That's not normal, and you should get it checked out. SparkEV's battery is an engineering marvel, and they adopted 2014 SparkEV battery cooling for Bolt. People talk about Tesla this and that, but when it comes to battery tech, SparkEV is far superior.

I have never had anyone waiting for me to finish...

I try to charge to 80% when there's no one waiting for me, but if someone's waiting, I stop as soon as I have enough to get home as courtesy. Same can't be said of all Leaf drivers who get free charge; there was one exception, but all others sit and wait for full 30 minutes, even if the car is charging at 2 kW out of 50 kW charger. Apparently, their time is worthless and think others' times are as well. This is why free charging sucks; free to them means suck up as much as you can, as long as you can.

 

[NORTON]

My Spark does not slow down till it hits 90% .....

I definitely don't see this on my '14.

I can sit with the car powered up while plugged into a DCFC station, enjoying the AC if needed, and watch the car's Power Display on the right side.
The DCFC station shows 48kW on its display at the start. It also shows % of SOC.
My Spark EV will show ~44kW of 'Regen' (AC is sucking up ~2kW of power not going to the battery) right up to the 80% mark then it tapers to ~24kW over a minute or so. Then later it will taper even more. I only stuck around once long enough to see it taper off more from 24kW. I don't remember the details.

But it definitely does not taper down to the levels Blogspot reports seeing on the Leaf.
Maybe it's not so much the Free Charge Program as the Cheap Ass Leaf owners that don't yet understand all things EV.
When you're at a DCFC station you should be Fast Charging, not sucking it up really slow..
The question is how to educate them to be Nice EV drivers.

But that is for another thread or forum.
This is supposed to be about the Bolt, remember? :?: :!: