DC fast charging: J1772 CCS vs CHAdeMO vs Supercharger, etc.

[TonyWilliams]

Don't get me wrong. I believe Tesla will succeed, just don't expect to ever be able to charge your Spark or Leaf at one of their stations.

I do think that chademo will eventually succumb to SAE in the long run, despite chademo's early momentum, and that both standards will coexist for at least 5 years. The best case scenario for drivers is adapters that allow us to charge at either type. Worst case is a dragged out standards battle driven by makers hoping to cripple each other in the market.

Well, first the good news from my perspective. When I first started posting on this forum about these issues, I wasn't too surprised to see the complete naïveté. But, now we are finally getting folks to grasp the situation. Plus, I feel that I have accomplished my goal of educating folks on the issues. If you still want to spend the money for a Spark with a Frankenplug, at least you should have a grasp of what that might actually get you, today and in the future.

Surely, the real Franken-simple math doesn't add up for me with an overwhelming Frankenplug presence anywhere, except where regulators can be flamboozled by the core supporters of GM and BMW. I will readily accept that Germany will fall to the German company Mennekes based Frankenplug. Yet another quick charge standard, Chameleon by Renault, is quickly sprouting up throughout France and elsewhere. Let's write off France to Chameleon. The rest of Europe, including Germany and France, already has about 1000 CHAdeMO stations and growing fast. Superchargers will also be all over Europe within two years.

But, in the USA, only GM is pushing for Frankenplug, yet they have no volume production EV of any kind on the horizon. Oh, sure, they'll pump out press releases of building cars to take on Tesla, but I don't honestly believe they will even try anytime soon.

For the record, BMW plans to sell its i3 in Japan with a CHAdeMO port. This move was so poorly planned that it left them putting the J1772 charge port under the hood !!! VW has also said it will sell its EVs with CHAdeMO in Japan. Tesla, too. Of course, GM won't sell any Spark EVs there, as they concentrate on merely meeting minimum CARB-ZEV requirements in Oregon and California.

To all you Frankenplug believers, good luck. The four current world leaders of EVs in the world, Nissan (80,000), Mitsubishi (30,000), Renault (30,000) and Tesla (25,000) all have no plans to use Frankenplug anywhere in the world.

GM has sold about 500 EVs, total.

 

[xylhim]

Europe also has the standard of displaying velocity in km/hr and the steering wheel is on the right. Since the US is so forthcoming with adopting world standards, it's only a matter of time before these features hit our streets!

But seriously, I don't think the message should go around as "don't buy fast charging because the standard hasn't been settled yet". That's just going to goad US auto manufacturers to claim "oh see, no one is interested in fast charging, and no one is buying EVs, so let's just push vaporware hydrogen fuel cell vehicles".

The EV community should be suggesting to folks interested in EVs to invest in fast charging, no matter what the standard. If the demand is high, I speculate that the plug type will be installed at new EV stations. The more fast charging vehicles on the road, the greater there will be demand for the fast charging stations. Then hopefully, once a good network is built up, the roadblocks for most EV skeptics will be torn down, and EV adoption will increase.

 

[cwerdna]

I do think that chademo will eventually succumb to SAE in the long run, despite chademo's early momentum, and that both standards will coexist for at least 5 years. The best case scenario for drivers is adapters that allow us to charge at either type. Worst case is a dragged out standards battle driven by makers hoping to cripple each other in the market.

Well, first the good news from my perspective. When I first started posting on this forum about these issues, I wasn't too surprised to see the complete naïveté.
...
Surely, the real Franken-simple math doesn't add up for me with an overwhelming Frankenplug presence anywhere, except where regulators can be flamboozled by the core supporters of GM and BMW. I will readily accept that Germany will fall to the German company Mennekes based Frankenplug. Yet another quick charge standard, Chameleon by Renault, is quickly sprouting up throughout France and elsewhere. Let's write off France to Chameleon. The rest of Europe, including Germany and France, already has about 1000 CHAdeMO stations and growing fast. Superchargers will also be all over Europe within two years.

But, in the USA, only GM is pushing for Frankenplug, yet they have no volume production EV of any kind on the horizon. Oh, sure, they'll pump out press releases of building cars to take on Tesla, but I don't honestly believe they will even try anytime soon.
...

Yep, naïveté indeed.

SenorChispa, please state how "chademo will eventually succumb to SAE in the long run". As Tony and I have tried to illustrated, the Fraken-math simply doesn't add up. Please run some sales projections like I've asked earlier in this thread amongst the Frankenplug cast and ask yourself, w/those sales numbers, would they be willing to spend the $ and effort to get their DC FCs installed in large numbers?

Since Tony mentioned GM "taking on Tesla", the Cadillac ELR, a gussied-up $76K PHEV based on the Volt doesn't look like it'll have an DC FC capability, just like the Volt doesn't have any.

 

[TonyWilliams]

Since Tony mentioned GM "taking on Tesla", the Cadillac ELR, a gussied-up $76K PHEV based on the Volt doesn't look like it'll have an DC FC capability, just like the Volt doesn't have any.

Plus, the Cadillac ELR is built on the current Volt chassis, which is all but a dead ringer for "press release & show piece" as opposed to serious sales effort. Absolutely, no Frankenplug on either GM car, the Cadillac ELR or Ampera/Volt.

Besides the compliance-only Spark EV, GM has not announced any other car to either be all-electric, nor use Frankenplug.

Fellow Frankenplug member Mercedes Benz is not offering any DC charging options on their compliance effort for 2015 model year, the B-Klasse ED.

 

[xylhim]

Please run some sales projections like I've asked earlier in this thread amongst the Frankenplug cast and ask yourself, w/those sales numbers, would they be willing to spend the $ and effort to get their DC FCs installed in large numbers?

Since Tony mentioned GM "taking on Tesla", the Cadillac ELR, a gussied-up $76K PHEV based on the Volt doesn't look like it'll have an DC FC capability, just like the Volt doesn't have any.

See here is where you run into trouble. You can't make a projection based on a fleet of vehicles that don't even exist yet. When they do come out, and you develop a linear equation that describes the slope of a line (or a projection of sales), your technically not supposed to project beyond the most extreme (highest or lowest) data point in the slope. So for example, say between January and December 2014 there was a maximum of 450 and minimum of 125 Spark EVs sold / month; the rest of the monthly sales fall somewhere between that range of 125-450. If in fact the sales growth is linear, you still can't project past the 450 units / month figure with any amount of certainty, it's a violation of basic statistics if you do. And this is only if the trend is linear. Maybe the sales will be logarithmic, exponential, parabolic? In addition, the variability of sales in the first years are pretty extreme, for instance the leaf doubled it's sales this year in comparison to previous years. I did I quick google search for sales numbers- last year pundits where pinning the leaf to be a flop because sales hadn't really increased from 2011 to 2012; now they're eating their words.

In this emerging industry, a new breakthrough that cuts the price of batteries in half could cause dramatic increases in sales from one generation of vehicles to the next; how would we then make projections of sales when they would increase by orders of magnitude seemingly overnight. When the battery breakthrough happens, whatever tech that's out now could be completely irrelevant instantly. What if GM is the first to make a 200 mile range EV that costs less than 30K? Don't you think that whatever standard of fast charger they have would immediately change the paradigm of what standard gets adopted?

DL;DR: How can we be sure what the sales forecast is going to be when no data exists to make an accurate extrapolation?

 

[TonyWilliams]

... So for example, say between January and December 2014 there was a maximum of 450 and minimum of 125 Spark EVs sold / month; the rest of the monthly sales fall somewhere between that range of 125-450. If in fact the sales growth is linear, you still can't project past the 450 units / month figure with any amount of certainty, it's a violation of basic statistics if you do...
DL;DR: How can we be sure what the sales forecast is going to be when no data exists to make an accurate extrapolation?

You might want to adjust your "450 per month" dream...

376 sold in CARB states California and Oregon only

July 2013 - 103
Aug 2013 - 102
Sep 2013 - 78
Oct 2013 - 66
Nov 2013 -


Here's the sales forecast for the SparkEV from GM:

Fleet Spark EV sales only in Canada, and no current plan for sales at all for Europe, as reported by:

http://www.greencarreports.com/news/1087919_chevy-spark-ev-electric-car-no-retail-sales-in-canada-europe

Chevy Spark EV Electric Car: No Retail Sales In Canada, Europe


It's a frequently asked question: Will the 2014 Chevrolet Spark EV be sold where I live?

(Assuming you don't already live in California or Oregon, where the subcompact electric car has been on sale since June--or South Korea, where it's made.)

General Motors had earlier announced that sales of the Spark EV would expand to Europe, and also to Canada.

Checking in on that promise with Randy Fox of GM Communications, we find the plan has changed...

"We have decided to defer the launch of the Spark EV in Europe," Fox said.

"The market for pure EVs is still in its infancy and volumes are rather low," he continued.

"We will carefully observe how the market develops over time, and react accordingly."

And there you have it: Consumers in Canada and Europe will not be able to buy a Chevrolet Spark EV...

Of course, we know what this really means. Blah, blah, sell in compliance states, blah, blah, at minimum volume to meet regulatory quotas.

Here's where Frankenplug is today, versus its competition:

Protocol .......... US Deployed . World Deployed ....... US Cars .... Worldwide Cars
Frankenplug ........ 2 ......................... 0 ..................... 0 ............. 0 ... (moribund)
CHAdeMO ......... 300 ................... 3,000 .............. 40,000 .... 110,000 (growing fast)
Supercharger .... 240 ...................... 300 .............. 15,000 ..... 18,000 (extreme growth)

 

[SenorChispa]

Having not even an eighth of the passion for this topic that others apparently do, I will simply restate my unsubstantiated *opinion* that SAE will eventually win the standards battle in the US. I'm not going to bet my house on it, but having seen technology standards battles play out in other areas, my hunch is that when big US makers finally do get serious about electric cars it will change the market in ways that cannot be predicted by extrapolating from current sales data. As they say in the stock market, past performance is not a guarantee of future performance.

The debate over DC charging is, in many ways, missing the point of electric cars entirely. The best use of an electric car is to make commute and shopping trips (90% of most people's driving) well within range of a non-Telsa EV. Even if I could recharge to 80% in 20 minutes every 60 miles, thats still quite inconvenient on a 300 mile road trip. If I need to go more than 40 miles from home, I'll take a gas car.

As the heated fast charging war rages on, I'll be happily driving my slow charging Spark 6 days a week.

 

[cwerdna]

See here is where you run into trouble. You can't make a projection based on a fleet of vehicles that don't even exist yet.
...
DL;DR: How can we be sure what the sales forecast is going to be when no data exists to make an accurate extrapolation?

It's quite easy to make some rough predictions. Since GM doesn't have a serious EV program, let's take the next most serious ICEV maker after Nissan which sells cars in the US: BMW. I'm doing most of the homework for you. Look at the % of Nissan sales the Leaf is. Apply that percentage to BMW sales, or even double, just for kicks, to predict i3 sales. See what you come out with.

Here are sales for BMW and Nissan for 2012 and YTD (thru October 2013, we will hear November 2013 sales very shortly).
http://www.prnewswire.com/news-releases/bmw-group-achieves-best-sales-year-ever-in-the-us-185572652.html
http://nissannews.com/en-US/nissan/usa/channels/U-S-Sales-Reports/releases/nissan-north-america-sales-increase-9-5-percent-in

http://finance.yahoo.com/news/bmw-group-u-reports-october-174900591.html
http://nissannews.com/en-US/nissan/usa/channels/U-S-Sales-Reports/releases/nissan-u-s-sales-increase-14-2-for-october-record

 

[xylhim]

It's quite easy to make some rough predictions. Since GM doesn't have a serious EV program, let's take the next most serious ICEV maker after Nissan which sells cars in the US: BMW. I'm doing most of the homework for you. Look at the % of Nissan sales the Leaf is. Apply that percentage to BMW sales, or even double, just for kicks, to predict i3 sales. See what you come out with.

So the i3 should be selling ~643 cars a month once it's released? How does the 10000 cars already pre-ordered factor into this "rough prediction"?

How does the cost of gas change the ratio of EV / ICE car sales?
How does transferring taxes to develop roads from gasoline to miles traveled change this ratio? (http://www.cbsnews.com/news/will-you-have-to-pay-a-tax-for-every-mile-you-travel/)
How does changing government incentives for EVs change this ratio?
What if a forth level three charging standard is introduced and accepted by a large automotive company?
What about improvements in battery tech: lowering cost, increasing range?
What about changes in consumer confidence in the EV brands (positive or negative)?
What about the urgency of climate change and what societal pressures this will cause to lower [CO2]?

I could probably come with even more variables that could greatly impact EV sales over time. I mean, could you have made the prediction that the leaf would double it's sales this year compared to last given sales did not improve from 2011-2012? Will the Leaf double in sales again in 2014? I'd like to hear your prediction and wait and see for next year!

 

[cwerdna]

It's quite easy to make some rough predictions. Since GM doesn't have a serious EV program, let's take the next most serious ICEV maker after Nissan which sells cars in the US: BMW. I'm doing most of the homework for you. Look at the % of Nissan sales the Leaf is. Apply that percentage to BMW sales, or even double, just for kicks, to predict i3 sales. See what you come out with.

So the i3 should be selling ~643 cars a month once it's released? How does the 10000 cars already pre-ordered factor into this "rough prediction"?

How does the cost of gas change the ratio of EV / ICE car sales?
H...

I don't know what the deal is with the "10,000" "pre-orders" for the i3 that's been reported. You have me curious about what the really means (I thought I remember reading about it awhile ago).

FWIW, the Leaf had 20,000 $99 "reservations" before it launched: http://green.autoblog.com/2010/09/23/report-nissan-reaches-20-000-leaf-pre-orders-will-stop-taking/. Not everyone went thru w/the deal, not even close as it was only $99 and refundable.

I was one of the folks who paid the $99, got issued a refund (due to not buying/leasing), paid the $99 again (in another phase) and got it refunded when Nissan no longer did that, as there was no more need.

Most of the other factors you cited would affect other BEVs and PHEVs too.

As a side note, at the SF Auto Show (I was there on Sunday and others reported the same thing on other days), the lone i3 there was locked and nobody could even sit inside it, let alone test drive it. This is weird given the HUGE market the SF Bay Area is for EVs and PHEVs.

In contrast, at the LA Auto Show, they had a whole bunch (I heard 70) and they were available for test drive. I know some folks who were down there and test drive. I saw their pics on Facebook (I'm Facebook friends w/some of them) and even a test drive video uploaded by someone I personally know. I hear his voice in the video.

 

[cwerdna]

... So for example, say between January and December 2014 there was a maximum of 450 and minimum of 125 Spark EVs sold / month; the rest of the monthly sales fall somewhere between that range of 125-450. If in fact the sales growth is linear, you still can't project past the 450 units / month figure with any amount of certainty, it's a violation of basic statistics if you do...
DL;DR: How can we be sure what the sales forecast is going to be when no data exists to make an accurate extrapolation?

You might want to adjust your "450 per month" dream...

376 sold in CARB states California and Oregon only

July 2013 - 103
Aug 2013 - 102
Sep 2013 - 78
Oct 2013 - 66
Nov 2013 -

Yep. http://insideevs.com/wp-content/uploads/2013/12/Monthly-Plug-In-Sales-Dec-2013-v4.png shows 87 Spark EVs were sold in the US in November 2013. Full article at http://insideevs.com/november-2013-plug-in-electric-vehicle-sales-report-card/.

So, after 5 full months + I'm guessing a partial month at the beginning, a total of 463 have been sold in the US.

 

[cwerdna]

Although this doesn't directly affect us in the US, I was unaware of the apparently rapid CHAdeMO growth in the UK and Ireland. See http://www.teslamotorsclub.com/showthread.php/20844-Why-Tesla-needs-to-bring-a-CHAdeMO-adapter-to-the-UK-and-Ireland.

 

[SenorChispa]

I stumbled across this article today that says Chademo is doomed in Europe:
http://www.plugincars.com/why-chademo-death-row-europe-128001.html. http://www.plugincars.com/why-chademo-death-row-europe-128001.html

 

[cwerdna]

I stumbled across this article today that says Chademo is doomed in Europe:
http://www.plugincars.com/why-chademo-death-row-europe-128001.html. http://www.plugincars.com/why-chademo-death-row-europe-128001.html

Lame hit piece w/tons of misinformation.

Be sure to read TonyWilliams' comments in that "article".

I don't have the time to read all the comments but this was a good one:

· sTv0 · 16 weeks ago

"Before the end of this year, these new electric cars will be launched in Europe: Tesla Model S, Ford Focus Electric, Volkswagen E-Up! and the BMW i3. Not a single one works with CHAdeMO chargers."

And, except for the Tesla, not a single one works with *any* fast charger. Hatchet job journalism...ahh...it's what's for breakfast....

And, the Tesla Model S story is changing real soon w/the upcoming adapter (http://shop.teslamotors.com/collections/model-s/products/chademo-adapter).

I had to LOL at the crap in the "article"

Only a minority of EVs work with CHAdeMO today, and that minority will only get smaller in the coming years

Sure, the largest EV w/the world's largest installed base and another w/a large installed base (just not in the US) can use CHAdeMO. And, another rapidly growing model (the Model S) doesn't support CCS and will support CHadeMO via an optional adapter.

Minority, huh? How many units work w/CHAdeMO? How about Frankenplug?

BTW, in Estonia, a country that has about 1/10th the land area of the state of California and about 3% the population of California, they apparently have 163 CHAdeMO DC FCs, as pointed out by http://www.teslamotorsclub.com/showthread.php/24298-Delivery-of-first-Model-S-to-Estonia-soon-and-the-road-there/page7?p=515968&viewfull=1#post515968. In his first post he said

Now the infrastructure around here is one of the best in world. We have a charger every 50-60km and every single one of them can do 3x32A Type-II or CHAdeMO at 50kW so at worst I'd just need to stop for a short time and recharge the missing 20-30km

 

[xylhim]

... So for example, say between January and December 2014 there was a maximum of 450 and minimum of 125 Spark EVs sold / month; the rest of the monthly sales fall somewhere between that range of 125-450. If in fact the sales growth is linear, you still can't project past the 450 units / month figure with any amount of certainty, it's a violation of basic statistics if you do...
DL;DR: How can we be sure what the sales forecast is going to be when no data exists to make an accurate extrapolation?

You might want to adjust your "450 per month" dream...

376 sold in CARB states California and Oregon only

July 2013 - 103
Aug 2013 - 102
Sep 2013 - 78
Oct 2013 - 66
Nov 2013 -

Yep. http://insideevs.com/wp-content/uploads/2013/12/Monthly-Plug-In-Sales-Dec-2013-v4.png shows 87 Spark EVs were sold in the US in November 2013. Full article at http://insideevs.com/november-2013-plug-in-electric-vehicle-sales-report-card/.

So, after 5 full months + I'm guessing a partial month at the beginning, a total of 463 have been sold in the US.

I wasn't trying to estimate the amount of spark EVs that are going to be sold next year, I was just stating an example of how it's difficult to really predict outside the bounds of a series of data. Replace the 450 cars/month with 130 cars/month if that is bothersome; the sales figures for these EVs are so variable, and the data so limited, there's not much to reliably predict.

Moving forward, I think it may be more useful to discuss the prospects of new fast charging stations coming in, regardless of standard.

 

[Oberon]

This whole topic seems a tempest in a teacup. The primary costs of a DC charging station are the land, the enclosure, the utility infrastructure, the power electronics. These are all very similar no matter what plug or signalling protocol are used. The control protocol CAN vs the SAE one could be handled by almost any embedded controller with a little extra programming. The only really costly part of supporting multiple standards is the multiple station to car cables and connectors. I'd guess that the additional cost to support all three charging "standards" over just one is on the order of $500. This obviously applies to new units, retrofitting old units will be more expensive.

 

[cwerdna]

I'd guess that the additional cost to support all three charging "standards" over just one is on the order of $500. This obviously applies to new units, retrofitting old units will be more expensive.

I think your guess is off by quite a bit.

I don't know what CHAdeMO connectors (not the inlet) currently sell for but back in December 2011, I was at the meeting pictured at http://www.mynissanleaf.com/viewtopic.php?p=155656#p155656. Ingineer (talent EE behind evseupgrade.com) told me the CHAdeMO cable he had w/connector cost $3K. (Well, the meeting was indoors and there was a break in the middle for show and tell to Kadota-san, the Leaf's Chief Vehicle Engineer + the Nissan engineers and execs present.)

Have you ever tried lifting a CHAdeMO connector w/cable attached at a DC FC? I have at one of http://nissanqc.com/ at a Nissan dealer to charge my car. It's very heavy.

Even quality J1772 (for L2) handles w/cable that can handle only 240 volts @ 30 amps are at least $170 (http://code.google.com/p/open-evse/wiki/J1772CableSources).

You really think that $500 is all it takes to add cable and connector (not including R&D costs and other electronics) to support 2 more standards?

BTW, to go a bit OT again, if one wants to see some pics from the above meeting, start at http://www.mynissanleaf.com/viewtopic.php?p=155472#p155472 and advance thru the pages to find a few more pics.

 

[cwerdna]

I wasn't trying to estimate the amount of spark EVs that are going to be sold next year, I was just stating an example of how it's difficult to really predict outside the bounds of a series of data. Replace the 450 cars/month with 130 cars/month if that is bothersome; the sales figures for these EVs are so variable, and the data so limited, there's not much to reliably predict.

It's not that limited. Here are US figures:
http://www.hybridcars.com/december-2010/
http://www.hybridcars.com/december-2011-dashboard-sales-still-climbing-35093/
http://www.hybridcars.com/december-2012-dashboard
http://www.hybridcars.com/november-2013-dashboard/

BTW, the PNG I posted earlier has changed. Current version at http://insideevs.com/wp-content/uploads/2013/12/Monthly-Plug-In-Sales-Dec-2013-vfinal2.png.

Moving forward, I think it may be more useful to discuss the prospects of new fast charging stations coming in, regardless of standard.

I don't think there's a good tracking thread for CHAdeMO DC FCs in the US, but there are multiple threads at MNL discussing them and Nissan's pretty poor communications re: sites added, planned, underway, etc. (I was able to dig up a preliminary Nissan list at http://www.mynissanleaf.com/viewtopic.php?f=4&t=13522&p=308672#p308672.)

Outside the US, I have no idea if there's a good place to discuss.

While digging for a statement from Andy Palmer of Nissan, I stumbled across http://chargedevs.com/features/a-new-leaf-localized-manufacturing-and-a-focus-on-infrastructure/ (I knew much of the info there already).

Palmer also hit upon another reason why LEAF sales have been slow in the US, which is a lack of charging infrastructure. “I know I can drive across the whole of Japan and know that I’ll always be within 20 km of a fast charger,” he said.

I started http://www.mynissanleaf.com/viewtopic.php?f=9&t=11679&p=269542 long ago for Frankenplug.

For Supercharger, one can discuss, but that's probably best done at teslamotorsclub.com. You can see present and planned ones at http://www.teslamotors.com/supercharger. Move the slider under the map.

As for prospects... well, there's the chicken and the egg problem and the demand side. With no J1772 CCS EVs available for sale to the public in the US and only 1 Frankenplug player being serious about EVs (w/no car for sale in the US yet, which also can have an optional range extender engine).... the prospects sure don't look good for Frankenplug.

Oh yeah, and although I'm not a fan of the vehicle, the Mitsubishi i-Miev's price was dropped big time and the '14s will come standard w/CHAdeMO port (http://insideevs.com/2014-mitsubishi-i-miev-reduced-by-6130-now-from-22995-which-includes-fast-charging/). Maybe this will resurrect their sales a bit, from virtually nil in the US right now.

 

[Oberon]

I'd guess that the additional cost to support all three charging "standards" over just one is on the order of $500. This obviously applies to new units, retrofitting old units will be more expensive.

I think your guess is off by quite a bit.
... told me the CHAdeMO cable he had w/connector cost $3K.
Even quality J1772 (for L2) handles w/cable that can handle only 240 volts @ 30 amps are at least $170
...
You really think that $500 is all it takes to add cable and connector (not including R&D costs and other electronics) to support 2 more standards?

Actually, $500 sounds reasonable for a mass produced item like that. I think the current high prices are mainly due to low volumes. However, even stipulating that my estimate was low and the cable is really $3k, that is still very small relative to the rest of the station costs, so I don't think it affects my point much.

As for the "R&D costs and other electronics", there really isn't much there. Price an L1 charger. Take out the cable, connector, case, power electronics, protections etc and you are left with the micro-controller and line drivers to handle the J1772 protocol. Roughly an Arduino amount of hardware. Likewise, CAN controllers are commodity chips and are only a few dollars including an ARM core.

 

[cwerdna]

Actually, $500 sounds reasonable for a mass produced item like that. I think the current high prices are mainly due to low volumes. However, even stipulating that my estimate was low and the cable is really $3k, that is still very small relative to the rest of the station costs, so I don't think it affects my point much.

As for the "R&D costs and other electronics", there really isn't much there. Price an L1 charger. Take out the cable, connector, case, power electronics, protections etc and you are left with the micro-controller and line drivers to handle the J1772 protocol. Roughly an Arduino amount of hardware. Likewise, CAN controllers are commodity chips and are only a few dollars including an ARM core.

Why take them out? You need them.

As for J1772 protocol... err... you talked about 3 standards, so I presume you're referring to CHAdeMO, J1772 CCS and Tesla Supercharger. J1772 CCS apparently uses GreenPHY PLC. CHAdeMO uses CAN.

Tesla Supercharger? You'd likely need to pay a licensing fee to Tesla or at least something for the specs. Who knows how much that'd be? And, this assumes that Tesla even wants to bother allowing others to make Superchargers and having to worry about creating a certification process. It costs $2K for Supercharger access on the 60 kWh model S or you have to pay $10K more for the 85 kWh model.

Nissan long ago bragged that they got the cost of a CHAdeMO DC FC down to $10K. It was briefly up at http://nissanqc.com/ but vanished, leaving the $15.K unit. And, I already pointed out what the average cost of hardware + install is for such units @ dealers.