DC fast charging: J1772 CCS vs CHAdeMO vs Supercharger, etc.

[TonyWilliams]

The J1772 CCS plug is pretty large too. As for where OEM puts the plug, co-existing, etc. that's what happens when some players decide to use an existing ICE platform and want to put the port where the gas hole went. Many current J1772 AC charging vehicles only (e.g. Volt and FFE) don't even have space at the inlet side for the additional 2 pins where Frankenplug goes.

Yep, that was their early talking points; easy to use in converted oil burners, which meant they didn't have to make an additional refueling port, or develop a purpose built battery electric vehicle. Of course, the Spark EV uses a separate plug location from its oil burner cousin Spark, and the purpose built a BMW i3 uses two ports on its battery electric car with the 650cc motorcycle engine. Even a Volt uses two ports, one for oil and one for electrons.

In my 36,000 miles of driving with both a J1772 receptacle and a CHAdeMO receptacle in the same port, having two individual receptacles never was even the tiniest issue for me, the end user. Putting ports on the rear of the car, like Tesla, Toyota Rav4 EV and BMW i3... big pain in the posterior.

Got a press release or reputable source that says the JDM (Honda) Accord PHEV has CHAdeMO? It's not listed at http://www.chademo.com/wp/chademo-ev/.

Honda currently puts a CHAdeMO receptacle in their Japan market Fit EV, so I'm not surprised they'd put one in something else for Japan, even if only an engineering excercise. Everything leased here in the USA that Honda makes is absolute minimum quantity to be crushed at the end. They definitely aren't promoting CHAdeMO any more than they are promoting EV's. Honda is just a Japanese GM when it comes to EV's. Toyota, too.

Both Honda and Toyota will be on the hydrogen bandwagon for the 2015 - 2017 model years, producing 1/3 as many Zero Emission Vehicles (ZEV) as they did with battery electric cars for 2012-2014; Toyota will make 2600 Rav4 EV battery electric ZEV's and Honda will make 1100, sold only in CARB states. Hydrogen cars get THREE TIMES as many ZEV credits per vehicle, 9 versus 3 through 2017.

 

[gra]

FWIW, when I test drove a Spark EV I was surprised at how much less real estate was taken up by the J1772 combo and door compared to the LEAF's much larger door for the separate receptacles. I don't think the CCS plug is an elegant design, rather a reasonable and low cost kludge compared to CHAdeMO. Even if CCS only saves an automaker $10/car, once you get into major volumes that can add up to a good-sized chunk of change.

I'm on record as saying that if I were EV Czar we'd all move to the Tesla standard in the U.S., but given the choice between CHAdeMO and CCS I'd opt for the latter, assuming that they get installed around here in a reasonable amount of time. But I'll happily use whichever the car is equipped with. Quite frankly, I think wireless is where we'll all be in a few years, making this particular standards war irrelevant. I am not persuaded by the number of CHAdeMOs worldwide, as I and I imagine most drivers have no intention of shipping my car overseas - all I care about is the number installed here in the U.S., and of more immediate concern, how many are and will be installed locally in the places I need them. The # of CHAdeMOs in the U.S. gives them a by no means insurmountable lead at the moment, compared to CCS. If we want to go by the biggest market, shouldn't we all accept whatever standard China does (and that won't be CHAdeMO)?

 

[TonyWilliams]

As mentioned earlier, I'm speaking with my pocketbook. I'm really excited for my Spark EV with DC fast charging to arrive. I'd be really damn surprised if it showed up with a chademo connector on it (or didn't show up with a DC charge connector at all) because of a few internet warriors slamming the SAE standard anywhere they can find a soapbox to stand on.

Bryce

For all the attacks, you'd think you actually READ through the thread!!! Nobody is suggesting the GM will do ANYTHING with CHAdeMO.

Quite the opposite. They will continue to follow their path the attempt to thwart the competition with their German partners in the USA.

 

[TonyWilliams]

... If we want to go by the biggest market, shouldn't we all accept whatever standard China does (and that won't be CHAdeMO)?

That's obviously not going to happen, nor considered. Non sequitur. I'll take the Tesla plug for all the reasons listed above:


Here's the Tesla charge plug for the rest of the world besides the USA / Canada:

The Tesla charge port for the USA / Canada:

 

[cwerdna]

In my 36,000 miles of driving with both a J1772 receptacle and a CHAdeMO receptacle in the same port, having two individual receptacles never was even the tiniest issue for me, the end user. Putting ports on the rear of the car, like Tesla, Toyota Rav4 EV and BMW i3... big pain in the posterior.

Besides putting them in the rear, putting them on the side is goofy.

The way some of charging stations vs. the spots themselves are arranged at my work, some of the Volt drivers have to back in in order for the cable to reach. Today, I tried to unplug a Volt that was finished and plug in another waiting Volt, but the cable wouldn't reach. I've parked in the same spot many times before and it reaches the Leaf's port in the front center just fine.

That waiting Volt is a newbie who just got their car. Fortunately, they weren't a mystery car (added themselves to our internal "voluntary" EV/PHEV list), so I was able to send the owner an email.

I've briefly spoken to another Volt driver @ my work (I don't work w/him so I don't know him) who sometimes has to back in and he agrees that front center is the best place.

 

[markcmann]

If the Tesla owner would have just backed into the parking spot, there would be no need for an extension?

Tony, Great product, very useful for certain charging situations.

 

[Oberon]

Besides putting them in the rear, putting them on the side is goofy.

Perhaps. But the Spark is so short and so narrow that the front quarter location seems ok, it's only about three feet away from the front center anyway.

 

[Oberon]

Well, ABB seem recently to have gotten UL listing for a DC charge point with both CHAdeMO and CCS support.

So maybe the difficulties are not insurmountable.

 

[cwerdna]

Besides putting them in the rear, putting them on the side is goofy.

Perhaps. But the Spark is so short and so narrow that the front quarter location seems ok, it's only about three feet away from the front center anyway.

Where that guy parked and the way our Chargepoint EVSEs are installed (wasn't up to me, they were there long before I started at that company), it still wouldn't reach.

Heck, if I park in that spot w/my Leaf and I'm too far back in the spot or that coupled w/being too far left, it won't reach my Leaf's inlet which is in the front and slightly offset from the center (to make room for the CHAdeMO inlet next to it).

 

[TonyWilliams]

Well, ABB seem recently to have gotten UL listing...
So maybe the difficulties are not insurmountable.

I'm not sure they have a US specification Frankenplug listed. The one that was installed in San Diego (that I was present for the inauguration) is a Euro specification unit that required a Euro spec transformer (380/400 volt).

No UL listing on that, nor would the transformer meet US voltage standards (it was shipped in from Europe along with the charger).

 

[Oberon]

Well, ABB seem recently to have gotten UL listing...
So maybe the difficulties are not insurmountable.

I'm not sure they have a US specification Frankenplug listed. The one that was installed in San Diego (that I was present for the inauguration) is a Euro specification unit that required a Euro spec transformer (380/400 volt).

No UL listing on that, nor would the transformer meet US voltage standards (it was shipped in from Europe along with the charger).

Had you followed the link and looked at the specs you would have seen that it is in fact UL listed and runs on 480 V AC 60hz. The link is to the device on the ABB US page. They also have similar models for other locations, but those pages explicitly say they are not available in the US.

 

[TonyWilliams]

Well, ABB seem recently to have gotten UL listing...
So maybe the difficulties are not insurmountable.

I'm not sure they have a US specification Frankenplug listed. The one that was installed in San Diego (that I was present for the inauguration) is a Euro specification unit that required a Euro spec transformer (380/400 volt).

No UL listing on that, nor would the transformer meet US voltage standards (it was shipped in from Europe along with the charger).

Had you followed the link and looked at the specs you would have seen that it is in fact UL listed and runs on 480 V AC 60hz. The link is to the device on the ABB US page. They also have similar models for other locations, but those pages explicitly say they are not available in the US.

I guess that begs the obvious question; if it's UL listed for US spec voltage, why is a Euro-spec non-UL listed Frankenplug in San Diego?

 

[Oberon]

I guess that begs the obvious question; if it's UL listed for US spec voltage, why is a Euro-spec non-UL listed Frankenplug in San Diego?

You know, since you were there, you could have asked them that question. Call them up, you still could. Maybe they just got the UL approval, maybe it was a demo unit, maybe they meant to bring the UL one but left it in their other pants. Whatever. I'm not the one invested in denying that multi-protocol DC charge points and CCS in particular will ever be a thing. I'm just some ignorant blowhard on the internet who is going to assume that they will sooner or later supply what they seem to be advertising.

But hey, while you have them on the phone, ask how much more a CCS + CHAdeMO unit is vs a plain CCS one.

Maybe it's a gazillion dollars and CCS is still doomed. Maybe it's part of the conspiracy against the ONeTruePLUG. I don't care, other than to hope something sensible is settled before I need another EV when the Spark lease runs out.

 

[TonyWilliams]

Maybe it's a gazillion dollars and CCS is still doomed. Maybe it's part of the conspiracy against the ONeTruePLUG. I don't care, other than to hope something sensible is settled before I need another EV when the Spark lease runs out.

Now we're getting somewhere!!!! What's different between you and me is that I do care, and spend a lot of my time, energy and money to promote electric vehicles for the masses.

I'm of the simple thought that adding more standards for charging does NOT promote EV's; instead it splinters support, both for buyers and folks who actually pay and support the infrastructure.

Thank you for clarifying your position of not caring about these issues, beyond how it serves you personally. Obviously, you're not part of the solution.

 

[xylhim]

Maybe it's a gazillion dollars and CCS is still doomed. Maybe it's part of the conspiracy against the ONeTruePLUG. I don't care, other than to hope something sensible is settled before I need another EV when the Spark lease runs out.

I'm of the simple thought that adding more standards for charging does NOT promote EV's; instead it splinters support, both for buyers and folks who actually pay and support the infrastructure.

I agree, it's a bummer that one standard hasn't been chosen by all competing auto manufactures. But it looks like this is the reality of the situation.

However, right now BEVs have the support of early adopters but that's about it. So it's an inconvenience for us to have to deal with different standards, but it may play out to our advantage in the future.

Each camp wants their standard to prevail; Tesla doesn't want to put CCS in their lineup, neither does Nissan; GM doesn't want to adopt the Japanese standard. So this further intensifies competition between the manufactures to produce the best EVs so that not only are sales good, but their competing fast charging gets passed along. In the mean time, we all benefit from more charging stations (with hopefully) multiple charging standards equipped.

It will be interesting to see over the next year how many new stations in the US get put up with only one standard equipped; I really hope it's multiple, the goal should be to encourage EVs on the road, not fight over who can or cannot plug in.

 

[TonyWilliams]

In the mean time, we all benefit from more charging stations (with hopefully) multiple charging standards equipped.

It will be interesting to see over the next year how many new stations in the US get put up with only one standard equipped; I really hope it's multiple, the goal should be to encourage EVs on the road, not fight over who can or cannot plug in.

Nobody in the EV advocate business is thinking, "Gee, if only we could get more charging standards, EV's would really take off."

Yes, we want more EV's, but I don't think that multiple standards is the answer, and here's why. No consumer is begging for more standards, and that's who needs to be sold. Adding the GM / German Frankenplug to existing CHAdeMO stations only appeases those companies, not the consumer at large.

But, we are going to get some of those dual stations, and maybe even stations with 3 or more standards, too. The good news is that virtually without exception, they will all have CHAdeMO.

 

[cwerdna]

... So for example, say between January and December 2014 there was a maximum of 450 and minimum of 125 Spark EVs sold / month; the rest of the monthly sales fall somewhere between that range of 125-450. If in fact the sales growth is linear, you still can't project past the 450 units / month figure with any amount of certainty, it's a violation of basic statistics if you do...
DL;DR: How can we be sure what the sales forecast is going to be when no data exists to make an accurate extrapolation?

You might want to adjust your "450 per month" dream...

376 sold in CARB states California and Oregon only

July 2013 - 103
Aug 2013 - 102
Sep 2013 - 78
Oct 2013 - 66
Nov 2013 -

Yep. http://insideevs.com/wp-content/uploads/2013/12/Monthly-Plug-In-Sales-Dec-2013-v4.png shows 87 Spark EVs were sold in the US in November 2013. Full article at http://insideevs.com/november-2013-plug-in-electric-vehicle-sales-report-card/.

So, after 5 full months + I'm guessing a partial month at the beginning, a total of 463 have been sold in the US.

To finish this off, from http://insideevs.com/december-2013-plug-in-electric-vehicle-sales-report-card/, 76 Spark EVs were sold in December 2013, making for a total of 539 for the months it was sold in 2013.

Seems like 450 month is still a dream... If we toss the 1st month (of 27 units in June) as an aberration, incomplete month or whatever, for the rest, the average has been 85.3 units/month.

Meanwhile, 22.6K Leafs were sold in the US in 2013 (and ~12.7K units for July thru December or ~2128 units/month for those months) and likely ~17K Tesla Model S.

 

[supcrds]

Looks like the DC FC option now exists. Rydell in Northridge shows one in stock "in transit"
2LT $28,580. I bet it would not change the lease price much. At least it "real" rather than just "will be here soon". Personally don't see much point on the 3 year lease unless you know there will be one near you for sure.

http://www.chevynorthridge.com/VehicleDetails/new-2014-Chevrolet-Spark_EV-Hatch_2LT_%28Automatic%29-Northridge-CA/2153906783

 

[Nashco]

I can also confirm that the cars with DC charging are now hitting dealers. The dealer in Portland (Wentworth Chevy) called me today to confirm my car arrived yesterday. They've got another one exactly the same as mine (white, 2LT, DC charger) if somebody has been waiting for the fast charger to become available.

Bryce

 

[gra]

I can also confirm that the cars with DC charging are now hitting dealers. The dealer in Portland (Wentworth Chevy) called me today to confirm my car arrived yesterday. They've got another one exactly the same as mine (white, 2LT, DC charger) if somebody has been waiting for the fast charger to become available.

Bryce

So, did you pick it up yet? At least one Bay area dealer (Capitol Chevrolet) had one listed as in stock a few days back, but it's gone now so presumably someone bought it. I see others listed now in Fremont and elsewhere.