Fast DC charging

[Blackmamba]

for folks who want to quickly charge their batteries, this issue SHOULD get in the way of a purchase, as the OP who turned in his newly purchased Spark EV can attest.

Again, this person is a lying troll and you are helping spread his lie with these statements. I've called him out to offer proof, yet none exists.

This troll also has posted under another name on this site - evfreak143 (see his posts on the link below). The GM-Volt troll operated similarly with many names and I'm willing to bet this is the same guy. A GM-hater using lies in an attempt at sabotage. Assuming you are not him, please don't help him.

http://www.mychevysparkev.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=2&t=3361&start=10

PLEASE, PLEASE don't buy a Frankenplug car if you need to actually use a non-existent charger. There are other choices, particularly if you are in Chicago, Tennessee, Washington and Oregon, and major metro areas of California and Texas where the CHAdeMO quick chargers are already deployed.

Why are you so adamant on this issue? GM, BMW and others have chosen to use the same plug and protocols to add DC charging for a trivial amount of money rather than adding a separate CHAdeMO charging system that will add significant expense and impose design restrictions. The manufacturers of the DC chargers will just follow the path of least resistance, which is to manufacture a single charging unit that can support DC charging in NA, Europe, and China. CHAdeMO is ultimately a dead end. Let it die and move on, and Mr. LEAF Lover, stop telling people not to buy Spark EVs!

 

[TonyWilliams]

PLEASE, PLEASE don't buy a Frankenplug car if you need to actually use a non-existent charger. There are other choices, particularly if you are in Chicago, Tennessee, Washington and Oregon, and major metro areas of California and Texas where the CHAdeMO quick chargers are already deployed.

Why are you so adamant on this issue? GM, BMW and others have chosen to use the same plug and protocols to add DC charging for a trivial amount of money rather than adding a separate CHAdeMO charging system that will add significant expense and impose design restrictions. The manufacturers of the DC chargers will just follow the path of least resistance, which is to manufacture a single charging unit that can support DC charging in NA, Europe, and China. CHAdeMO is ultimately a dead end. Let it die and move on, and Mr. LEAF Lover, stop telling people not to buy Spark EVs!

Actually, if you do a bit of basic research, you'll find that GM and BMW have not chosen "the same plug". The Frankenplug standard is actually two completely different plugs between Europe and the US... they don't interchange; not even close.

China is absolutely not on the Frankenplug bandwagon (or CHAdeMO). You're batting zero so far, Mr. Spark Dude. Fortunately, Frankenplug doesn't need to die as it has yet to be born!!!

Obviously, folks will believe whatever they want, regardless of your less than informed diatribe, or my diatribes. But, I'm confident that they'll spend a few moments researching the non-existent Frankenplug before spending their hard earned money on it ($750). If they actually NEED to have DC charging, they'll also know that there currently isn't any place to do that.

Finally, you didn't really read my linked article that I wrote on the LEAF. If you had, you probably wouldn't be calling me Mr. LEAF Lover!!!

I do really appreciate the back and forth, though, because there will be other people with your same low knowledge level about Frankenplug, and electric vehicles in general who this should help.

Thanks again,

Tony

 

[Magicinstalls]

First, I don't think Magicinstalls was trolling. He/she just didn't get fully educated beforehand and trusted the word of the dealer - who also wasn't properly educated (and to be frank, most dealers will say anything if it sells cars). All it takes is a few minutes looking in the manual to see that the car doesn't have the DC charging port - it's not hard. At all.

You're a kind person and your feelings show. But I'll stand by my hunch, I've followed for five + years sites like this during the development and launch of the Volt and Leaf, the Volt site was haunted by a particular troll and I recognise his tones and MOs. This is the GM-Volt troll, and if the moderator of this site checks where the posts come from I'll bet you a $15 milkshake the posts are not from California or Oregon, or even the USA.

But hey - I've challenged him to give the name of the dealer and if it checks out, I will give a very sincere and sorrowful public apology. That won't happen though. We cannot let him get away with it for his dishonesty will taint whatever integrity Chevrolet dealers have with the public. And that's not cool.









Paranoid much? Here is the link to Premier Chevrolet's place page where I gave them a rave review for taking care of me, and allowing me to return my Spark without BS!

https://plus.google.com/108046816056987018727/about?gl=us&hl=en

I'm such a GM hater right? Notice the part where I praise the Spark EV in my review, and every time I mention it on this forum?
Enjoy your crow *******!

 

[Blackmamba]

Enjoy your crow *******!

Ooof!

Alright, I was wrong and apologize for calling you out as a troll. My bad, bad, bad.

One question - if DC fast charging is important to you, why did you get a Leaf? Their batteries are known to lose their potency in hot climates, and I don't think quick charging is recommended to be done too often.

 

[Magicinstalls]

I was quick charging My LEAF on a daily basis while my Nissan charger was out being upgraded to L2. Never had a problem.
Besides if my battery ever loses capacity Nissan will replace it for free...

 

[TonyWilliams]

I was quick charging My LEAF on a daily basis while my Nissan charger was out being upgraded to L2. Never had a problem.
Besides if my battery ever loses capacity Nissan will replace it for free...

Yes, the LEAF can be quick charged as much as you like, provided the battery doesn't get too hot. That is the one failing of the entire LEAF.

The warranty on the battery capacity is for about 70% within 5 years or 60,000 miles, so you do have to lose a significant amount in a relatively short time to get the battery replaced.

I'll bet the Spark EV doesn't have a CAPACITY guarantee on the battery.

 

[scotte]

Even Tesla isn't completely banking on a fast charging network, as they announced that they will be installing battery swap stations where you swap your batteries for a freshly charged set in about 90 seconds.

Wrong... Tesla has no intention of supplanting battery swapping with the current DC charging. The demonstration was a 94 second battery swap (two actually) and the announcement was that they would try a few stations in California on heavily traveled routes like LA to SF that would likely be co-located with Supercharger stations.

Funny - First you tell me that I'm wrong, and then you go on to agree with my statement - that they are going to do battery swap stations.

 

[scotte]

I'll bet the Spark EV doesn't have a CAPACITY guarantee on the battery.

That is correct, just like Tesla, there is no capacity guarantee for the Spark's battery. The liquid cooled nanophosphate Li-ion batteries in the Spark are certainly an advancement over the batteries in the LEAF, but only time will tell how much better they fare. And GM is not suggesting the same limitations on charging and usage that Nissan is for maintaining battery life, but the LEAF also has been out on the road for a couple of years. Again, we'll just have to see what happens - the LEAF's $100/month battery replacement program is steep, and not a pill I would be willing to swallow, so let's hope the Spark doesn't end up going down that road - but this is also a reason to lease, and not buy, an electric car at this stage of their technology and development.

 

[Blackmamba]

The reason Nissan has a CAPACITY warranty (cough-cough) on their battery is to contain a growing discontent among Leaf owners over premature battery degradation which caused diminished capacity. Why did this happen?... it was due to bone-headed cost-cutting decisions by top management not to provide a temperature management system (TMS) for the battery. Nissan continues to sell the Leaf with the same unprotected battery, and thus was compelled to provide a smokescreen to their problems via offering this 'warranty' which many Leaf owners have found not to be satisfactory when the fine print is read and understood.

Spark EV batteries have TMS, just as Volt have as well as the upcoming Cadillac ELR..... no battery issues such as capacity loss have surfaced for GM as they have for Nissan.

 

[TonyWilliams]

Even Tesla isn't completely banking on a fast charging network, as they announced that they will be installing battery swap stations where you swap your batteries for a freshly charged set in about 90 seconds.

Wrong... Tesla has no intention of supplanting battery swapping with the current DC charging. The demonstration was a 94 second battery swap (two actually) and the announcement was that they would try a few stations in California on heavily traveled routes like LA to SF that would likely be co-located with Supercharger stations.

Funny - First you tell me that I'm wrong, and then you go on to agree with my statement - that they are going to do battery swap stations.

They will do battery swapping. They WON'T supplant (/səˈplant/ Verb, Supersede and replace) battery swapping for DC quick charging. In addition, the swapping stations are so far only planned for California.

So, they will do both, however the swapping is likely not going to be seriously pursued (my supposition). Hope this clears it up.

Tony

 

[TonyWilliams]

... so let's hope the Spark doesn't end up going down that road - but this is also a reason to lease, and not buy, an electric car at this stage of their technology and development.

I suspect any of the TMS equipped cars (which is virtually all of them, EXCEPT the LEAF) will do just fine. The Tesla Roadster is one of the longest production EV's still out on the road at about 5 years, and they are doing fair (yes, they do seem to take a tumble above 100,000 miles).

The LEAF is just sad in warm climates, which makes it doubly important to only lease one in Phoenix. I warn potential LEAF drivers about this huge issue in the same manner I'm warning Spark EV drivers about Frankenplug.

 

[TonyWilliams]

Spark EV batteries have TMS, just as Volt have as well as the upcoming Cadillac ELR..... no battery issues such as capacity loss have surfaced for GM as they have for Nissan.

Funny, this makes you really look like a GM shill !!!

Anyhoo, yeppers, Nissan is the only one without TMS, and I have spent a good amount of my time working on the issue. We spent several thousand dollars of our own money to conduct the Sept 15, 2012 LEAF Range Test in Phoenix, and that, with a bunch of angry owners, plus a class action lawsuit got the capacity warranty.

The bad news is that Nissan probably won't do anything about it even when the redesign the battery for 2015/2016. It still won't have a TMS. The good news is, like the Spark EV, the lease is so cheap, just lease it and drive it. At the end, toss the dealer the keys and get another.

 

[gatedad]

Tony:
As usual, no matter which forum you are on, you add so much information that it's scary. My question to you is(and it's only fair to the extent that you have to make an educated guess, I know): Assuming that the CCS system is a no go, does GM honestly have any intention of going the ChaDeMo route later on, admitting defeat? Why put something out there, which by its very introduction, will actually hinder sales of a pretty darn good priduct? We don't have the Spark EV here in PA(unlikely to ever see one sold out here, I understand that)but for those areas that do have the car, the issue of DC Fast Charging is huge. I can see it being a game changer, as it bridges that gap between limited range and practical availability of this car. Getting 85-100 miles in San Diego weather is more than doable, it's being done from what I can see. But even 100 mles can be a little limiting. How can you travel from L.A. to San Diego without DC? Plenty of people would make that trip in a Spark EV if they had the option to QC.
Lou

 

[Sparkler]

But even 100 mles can be a little limiting. How can you travel from L.A. to San Diego without DC? Plenty of people would make that trip in a Spark EV if they had the option to QC.
Lou

Exactly why I had to walk away from the Rav4EV, no QC. Was it Tesla not giving up the SuperCharger port, or Toyota not buying it? Either way it hobbles an otherwise decent little truck.

For the Spark, it does not bother me at all not having it, it's destined for in town use only, but I do need to replace my truck someday, and 90 miles one way and back with a 2 hour charge is just not possible for the only EV that could conceivably carry my 30 foot ladder.

 

[TonyWilliams]

But even 100 mles can be a little limiting. How can you travel from L.A. to San Diego without DC? Plenty of people would make that trip in a Spark EV if they had the option to QC.
Lou

Exactly why I had to walk away from the Rav4EV, no QC. Was it Tesla not giving up the SuperCharger port, or Toyota not buying it? Either way it hobbles an otherwise decent little truck.

For the Spark, it does not bother me at all not having it, it's destined for in town use only, but I do need to replace my truck someday, and 90 miles one way and back with a 2 hour charge is just not possible for the only EV that could conceivably carry my 30 foot ladder.

Tesla will probably make a pickup truck in 5 or more years.

For the Rav4 EV, I actually own one. I was also on a (paid) focus group for the Rav4 EV long before its release, and I remember saying that I would not buy one without a Quick Charge port (CHAdeMO was the only logical choice at the time).

Well, I bought one anyway because the two LEAFs that I owned were just too limited on range and there just wasn't any CHAdeMO charge stations around me. Tesla would be happy to sell the use of its Supercharger Quick Charge stations, but I doubt Toyota was interested. Like GM, the Rav4 EV is PRIMARILY to earn California Air Resources Board - Zero Emission Vehicle credits so that they can sell hundreds of thousands of oil burner cars in California and other CARB states.

I think what I'll do on the Rav4 is add a second J1772 port with a 32 amp secondary charger. It would not quite double the 40 amp onboard (Tesla) charger capability, but it's relatively easy to do, and in public charging stations with two or more 30 amp units, I'll be able to use 60 amps. Here's what the Rav4 EV will do when new:

Toyota Rav4 EV Gen II
Miles Gained per Hour Charging @ 87.5% charger efficiency
70F Ambient temperature - hotter or colder will decrease miles gained

---------------------- 2.7 miles/kWh - 3.4 miles/kWh
Amps/Volts -- Where ------ City Drive ----- 65mph

12 / 120 ------- Any ------ 2.8 miles ------ 3.5 miles (supplied cable with car)
12 / 240 ------ Home ----- 6.8 miles ------ 8.6 miles (EVSEupgrade.com mod)
16 / 208 ------ Public ----- 7.5 miles ------ 9.5 miles (2011-2012 LEEF EVSE doesn't work)
16 / 240 ------ Home ----- 8.9 miles ----- 11.2 miles (2011-2012 LEEF EVSE doesn't work)
20 / 208 ------ Public ----- 9.4 miles ----- 11.9 miles (2013 LEEF EVSEupgrade.com)
20 / 240 ------ Home ---- 11.0 miles ----- 13.9 miles (Clipper Creek LCS-25)
24 / 240 ------ Home ---- 13.6 miles ----- 17.7 miles (dryer outlet)
25 / 250 ------ Home ---- 13.7 miles ----- 17.9 miles (2013 LEEF EVSEupgrade.com)
30 / 208 ------ Public ---- 14.8 miles ----- 18.7 miles (typical public J1772)
30 / 240 ------ Home ---- 17.1 miles ----- 21.6 miles (rare public J1772)
40 / 208 ------ Public ---- 18.5 miles ----- 23.4 miles (Tesla Roadster/Clipper Creek)
40 / 240 ------ Home ---- 22.7 miles ----- 28.5 miles (RV park "50 amp", welder outlet)
60 / 208 ------ Public ---- 28.1 miles ----- 35.3 miles (twin 30 amp public chargers)
72 / 240 ------ Home ---- 41.0 miles ----- 52.0 miles (twin J1772 concept max)

 

[TonyWilliams]

Tony:
As usual, no matter which forum you are on, you add so much information that it's scary. My question to you is(and it's only fair to the extent that you have to make an educated guess, I know): Assuming that the CCS system is a no go, does GM honestly have any intention of going the ChaDeMo route later on, admitting defeat?

Frankenplug will be a "go", but I have serious doubts as to its success. Look at the competition!!! CHAdeMO has been public for about 5 years, and Frankenplug hasn't gotten out of the gate yet. We don't even know what limitations and problems there may be yet with Frankenplug. Here in California, eventually, NRG/EVgo will install at least two hundred over four years... each with a CHAdeMO charger. In other words, it will be extremely difficult for Frankenplug to actually gain on CHAdeMO, which already has over a 100 on the USA west coast, and likely will have many hundreds more in 4 years.

GM won't "admit defeat" with Frankenplug any more than they did during bankruptcy and near liquidation of the entire enterprise (if not for $50 billion is US taxpayer money). They will push for government projects to finance installations and legislation naming them the "national standard" instead of that bad Japanese standard (that is the same all around the world) or the obviously grossly successful Tesla Superchargers designed, built, and installed right here in the USA (and now Europe).

Neither Ford nor Fiat/Chrysler have any real interest in Frankenplug, or electric vehicles at all. Tesla obviously will never be a Frankenplug company. Only GM in the USA, and they aren't that interested in electric cars, either. I don't see GM, or any of the German car manufacturers spending THEIR OWN money to install the Frankenplug in the USA. Actually, I just learned that the Mercedes B-Class EV won't even have a Quick Charge of any kind... it's just a compliance car like the Rav4 EV (both use Tesla drivetrains and no Quick Charge of any kind).

Why put something out there, which by its very introduction, will actually hinder sales of a pretty darn good priduct? We don't have the Spark EV here in PA(unlikely to ever see one sold out here, I understand that)but for those areas that do have the car, the issue of DC Fast Charging is huge.

My opinion (that in effect got me booted off the GM-Volt forum) is that GM wanted to throw road blocks out their to not let Nissan get too far ahead. It's not working too well, by the way.

The SAE Frankenplug is going to be used in exactly one place on planet earth; the USA. Only two known manufacturers will offer this as an option in the short term; BMW on the i3 and GM on the Spark EV. Neither of those cars will sell in the volume that Tesla and Nissan already have, and both of the latter are on the upswing in sales.

How can you travel from L.A. to San Diego without DC? Plenty of people would make that trip in a Spark EV if they had the option to QC.
Lou

I just drove the Rav4 EV from San Diego to Canada and back with no DC charging!! Check out http://www.AllElectricVehicleRally.org

If you need Quick Charging today on an EV, obviously the GM Spark EV is not your best choice. Even the LEAF is limited, depending on where the chargers are today. Here in southern California, it's relatively easy with a LEAF, but I doubt the "fly over states" will see many CHAdeMO or Frankenplugs!!! They will see a Tesla Supercharger every 150 miles or so, though!!! Tesla won't be fully built out with their Superchargers for about 2 years.

 

[surfingslovak]

Please note that ABB installed the first publicly accessible quick charger equipped with a CCS plug at Kelley’s Market Mobil, 3859 E. Washington Ave, Madison, WI. That said, how many cars with a CCS receptacle are presently on the road in Madison, WI is a question mark. I would hope that the unit they installed was a quick charger equipped with several plug types, which takes the edge off the argument CHAdeMO, CCS or AC fast charge.

Personally, I wish that we did not have a standards war, and if you asked me, Tesla seems to be leading the charge (pun intended) by a wide margin. If someone asked me to predict this a year ago, I would have completely missed this development or dismissed it as impossible. As much as we might disagree with some of the competitive roadblocks to adoption, I think it would behoove us to look for practical workarounds and also impress upon manufacturers and regulators that there must be a viable quick charging infrastructure for EVs to be successful longer-term.

Any disagreements or quarrels on the part of the OEMs are not going to help adoption, they are going to slow it down. I think Tony has done a tremendous amount of work in this area, and I respect his opinion. That said, you might want to ask GM, the dealers and local government representatives about quick charging, and form your own opinion. Demand answers and solutions that will help you increase the utility of your car, and be skeptical of promises and other representations. I think the message Tony is giving you is that the information provided by the dealers and the GM should be taken critically, since they both have their own vested interests.

Click to open

 

[Sparkie]

...So Im about to get a Spark EV and there is a Spark EV with quick charging provisions on its way should be here in about a month. Are you saying its completely not worth waiting a month for the quick charge option and just get one without it? Id like to occasionally have the option to take it on a longer trip to like Sacramento and was assured by GM dealerships that there should be a few sae combos installed enough for that type of travel of a the next year atleast one in dealerships.

 

[fengshui]

...So Im about to get a Spark EV and there is a Spark EV with quick charging provisions on its way should be here in about a month. Are you saying its completely not worth waiting a month for the quick charge option and just get one without it? Id like to occasionally have the option to take it on a longer trip to like Sacramento and was assured by GM dealerships that there should be a few sae combos installed enough for that type of travel of a the next year atleast one in dealerships.

Are you buying or leasing? There may be a few SAE quick chargers in dealerships next year, but you'd have to plan your trip carefully around their availability.

 

[Sparkie]

Im doing a lease with intent to buy. Im finishing up my last semester of college and want an EV and this one seems to have the performance I care about.