First (and only) Failure @ 54k miles.

[TheLondonBroiler]

UPDATE:

It appears the state of the art trouble shooting is to tell the customer they want to 'Try' an airbag module replacement this time

Is this really how it's done in this day and age of modern EV's????

I'd play it like this.

To service manager: I would like for your technician(s) to one more look at the problem, because if this "repair" does not resolve the issue, and you will not refund the full cost that I'll be charged, I intend to do the following: I will contact GM corporate, I will file a complaint with the better business bureau, and I will leave negative reviews about your dealership on Google, Yelp, Facebook, and anywhere I can to let other people know that I was charged $800 for a repair I was told would fix my vehicle, and it did not. I will be sure to include your full name and title.

Maybe it will change the diagnosis, maybe it won't. At least they know the consequences. You could call GM corporate first.

I apologize for repeating, I installed 12v components as a profession for 8.5 years, on any make and model. In the thousands of vehicles I worked on, I saw many airbag lights illuminated, but never did I hear or witness one effect the vehicle powertrain. I will concede that it is possible the systems could be intertwined to cause this, but I am very very skeptical.

 

[NORTON]

... >You could call GM corporate first.
... >>I saw many airbag lights illuminated, but never did I hear or witness one effect the vehicle powertrain. I will concede that it is possible the systems could be intertwined to cause this, but I am very very skeptical.

>I sent an email to two contacts at 'GM Communications' and one to GM Customer Service.
(I was told by the Service Manager I could call Customer Service but I'd probably be speaking to a nice young Indian lady from far far away....) I am going to call every number I can find come Monday.

This is for the good of all GM EV owners. There has to be a more scientific method of Trouble Shooting GM EV's.

>> I think there may be a protocol for EV's that when the Airbags get deployed the Main 400V battery relay is opened for safety reasons.
Only I have no Airbag light. That system appears fine.

This is a post I made on the Volt forum:

Just to recap:
Both times car is dead after a very brief DCFC. Tap the CP card to start and stop the charge session. Indication shows it added ~20 miles of range.
Both times car boots up fine but there is no Go Pedal response and there is now a check engine light.

>1st time: dealer installs a new HPCM2 [hybrid power control module 2]. Covered by warranty. I was told it is a common part used on the Volt and the Bolt and they had it in stock. Has a fault code that can't be reset.
Car is fine for a month. I did not do a DCFC until I made another Airport Run, Friday morning, O-dark:thiry...

>2nd time: dealer service manager says they want to "TRY" an $800 Airbag module and it's not covered by the Power Train Warranty even though it takes out the Power Train.
He says "It's the next item in the 'Trouble Tree' we use to trouble shoot".

No mention if it needs another HPCM2 this time, but he blathers on about 'Hard Codes' that can't be reset in these modules and they are then 'Bricked'.

And if this does not fix the problem I am still out $800? I ask, 'Then what?' and he doesn't know. "That's the top of the tree."

In his defense, this is all the info he has to go on. Is it pride that keeps these guys from calling GM EV Tech Support?
Couldn't GM provide some sort of 'Test Only' modules that can have the 'hard codes' reset? Trouble Shooting tools! For modern EV's!

I kind of doubt this is the kind of trouble shooting Nissan and Tesla does. I know this wouldn't fly in Aviation.

Please,
Does anyone have a contact at GM's EV Engineering? GM needs to up their trouble shooting game.

This is not how I want my future Bolt to be worked on.

In Summary: I would pay for this $800 Airbag module if the service manager was not being cagey about what happens when I pick up my car and drive immediately to the same DCFC station and I'm stranded again.

This is not a case of getting bad fuel at a certain gas station. I got the electrons just fine.
So let's say this DCFC station is putting out an 800 VDC spike when I stop the charge.
All of the 12 VDC systems are getting power provided by the APM when powered up and the 12 V battery when not.

If I worked in GM EV Engineering I'd be all over this situation. These things can be tested scientifically.
Hard fixes and answers are what's needed. Not "Let's try this next", at the owner's expense, with no guarantees.

 

[NORTON]

The Saga Continues:

Car is still in the shop. Yesterday, I told the shop to get the part on the way. I thought the GM EV team was doing this for me.
3-5 days to get the part. I guess overnight or next day is too much to ask for this little lightweight box.
They still want me to pay for a part that took them twice to find and it takes out my Power Train after a DCFC session.

Here is Chevy's EV troubleshooting at its finest:
_________________________________________________________________
Team,

I spoke with my service manager earlier today and here is what he came up with:

RO# xxxx
VIN# KL8CL6S03EC4xxxxxx
TAC CASE # 8-455xxxxxx

“In a nut shell when he goes to the airport and hooks up to the Quick Charger there, he sets codes in the computer and the gear shifter does not recognize what gear it is in. it sets a code p1ff4-00 in the system DTC P1FF4
System Isolation / Impact Sensor Fault - Hybrid/EV Battery System Contactors Open
The HPCM2 has been replaced and all of the programming has been done. There are no SIR codes so TAC recommended replacing the Sensing Diagnostic Module since it could be causing the fault disabling the fast charge.

Conditions for Setting the DTC
• The hybrid/EV powertrain control module 1 detects a "passive" isolation fault
• P1AF0, P1AF2, or P1E22 is set in the hybrid/EV powertrain control module 1.
• The supplemental inflatable restraint module roll over, air bag, or inertia sensors are not working.
OR
• The hybrid/EV powertrain control module 1 detects a "passive" isolation fault
• P1AF0, P1AF2, or P1E22 is set in the hybrid/EV powertrain control module 1.
• DTC U184E is set.
OR
• The hybrid/EV powertrain control module 2 has lost communications with the hybrid/EV powertrain control module 1.
• DTC U184E is set.
OR
• The hybrid/EV powertrain control module 2 has lost communications with the hybrid/EV powertrain control module 1.
• The supplemental inflatable restraint module roll over, air bag, or inertia sensors are not working
The vehicle is out of the B2B warranty and the SDM is not part of the Hybrid/Volt warranty we ran a calculator and it showed customer participation at 75%.
_______________________

So, it is This OR This OR This.......Not very precise... Also, it changes gear selection just fine, just NO GO Pedal response.

Here's from the webs and it looks like codes can be reset:

Diagnostic Trouble Codes (DTC): A set of codes used by the SDM in order to indicate specific SIR system malfunctions. EDR / Event data recorder: Technically called the air bag SDM module on GM vehicles. Generic industry term for the black box data. Also called crash data recorders or EDR.
SDM airbag tech info - GM Air Bag, Black Box, EDR, Event Data ...
http://www.airbagcrash.com/sdmairbagtechinfo.html

I told them how unimpressed I was with this.
I work in Flight Certification. We have Break-Out Boxes and 'T'-Harnesses to gather data so we know exactly what is going on.

And I'm still not getting a straight answer to "What happens when I go directly to a DCFC station and I'm stranded again?"

Wish me luck, I might have the car back by next week sometime.... Place Yo Bets!!! Will they fix it on the second try?

I wonder if the new Hyundai and Kia BEV's have better troubleshooting procedures in place?
Chevy is getting a lot (most?) of their EV components from Korea.

 

[NORTON]

Car is still in the shop.
Can't wait to go immediately to a DCFC session.
Can't wait to see what will happen if it fails exactly the same way for the 3rd time.....

The Saga Continues:
Car is still in the shop.

And I'm still not getting a straight answer to "What happens when I go directly to a DCFC station and I'm stranded again?"

Wish me luck, I might have the car back by next week sometime.... Place Yo Bets!!! Will they fix it on the second try?

I wonder if the new Hyundai and Kia BEV's have better troubleshooting procedures in place?
Chevy is getting a lot (most?) of their EV components from Korea.

 

[NORTON]

Dealer has the part today! 1 week after telling them 'Let's do this and order the part.'.
Maybe I'll get it back this evening!

Coincidentally, I have an O-dark-thirty airport run tomorrow morning.
I’d love to do it in the Spark EV!!
This would allow me to test it at the exact same DCFC station that I got stranded at the last two times I used that station.

I’ve been asking my contacts at Chevy what happens if the car goes down for the 3rd time after a DCFC session?
Do I have to also pay for the 3rd guess in the trouble tree?

I found this on another forum where I posted this sad story, and this guy really know the Spark EV !!:

This happened to my Spark EV twice on DCFC session, same charger. I avoid that Autonation Chevy free 20kw CCS charger like a plague. Note - any other fast charger, including exactly same model that is close to my house, does not cause the issue. The issue is specific to 1 fast charger in my case.
Nothing needs replacing - my guesstimate it is an issue with DCFC software where on failed fast charging event DCFC contactor is left in the wrong state and it triggers isolation fault on the next isolation check. Reason for this guesstimate – my fast charge would fail, but the “Ready” is still green. If I attempt to fast charge again, the car gets disabled, same codes as your Spark EV.
What I run on my GDS2 to clear the DCFC fault is
"High Voltage 2 -> Configuration Reset Functions -> DC Charging disabled reset".
After that run the usual High Voltage Disabled reset sequence.
Note - I am rocking a salvaged Spark EV I rebuild myself, before my Tesla M3 AWD shows up, so going to the dealer is not an option...
BTW, I started carrying old laptop wit cigarette lighter charger, and GDS2 in my Spark EV so I can field reset the fault. Never needed to use the setup, but it is always there.

To the Chevy engineers, software team, if you're reading this, better state cleanup is needed after failed DCFC charging event. Don't rush disabling the car...

 

[NORTON]

<UPDATE>
Got a call from the service manager yesterday ! Can pick up car Monday after some more testing! However.....

I posted this on another forum:

Quote Originally Posted by xxx
.....do not try charging again at the same fast charger.
Best of luck, and try avoiding what my wife calls TOS (Tow Of Shame) ...End Quote.

Me:
Funny! I use the same expression and I can proudly state that I have never done the TOS!!

Also funny about avoiding that one particular DCFC station...

That's exactly what the service manager told me yesterday!!
Say What?? Like,, that one is getting water in my electrons? It has a strange voodoo that can't be technically be explained?
(I have a ChargePoint email saying that station has been used many times before and after my incident, never a complaint.)

And he said if I ever get caught using that particular DCFC station and break down again,,,, NO MORE WARRANTY.
OK, he is just following whatever HQ is telling him. I asked for that in writing.

And he said the car is up and running!! They were about to drive it to the prep center where their 24kW DCFC is located.
The car would be ready on Monday. They want to test if for while longer.

And then, I find a vmail from him around 6PM saying the car failed again at their DCFC center.
They are next going to replace the module that deals with DCFC functions. :?: ?duhh?? :roll: ya think?
Oh, and they were going to overnight it! Yay! I don't have to wait another week for slow-boat shipping.

ps. I'm posting this as my log of this event, sorry, if it too long.

I am a fan of Chevy's EV's! I always thought a Bolt with ACC or even GM's SuperCruise would be my next car.
Now, I'm a little curious about the KIA and Hyundai BEV offerings that are coming. The next gen LR Leaf may have LG cells and a proper TMS, and ProPILOT.

pss. You know where the shame should be every time my GM is on a tow truck??

 

[MrDRMorgan]

<UPDATE>
Got a call from the service manager yesterday ! Can pick up car Monday after some more testing! However.....

I posted this on another forum:

Quote Originally Posted by xxx
.....do not try charging again at the same fast charger.
Best of luck, and try avoiding what my wife calls TOS (Tow Of Shame) ...End Quote.

Me:
Funny! I use the same expression and I can proudly state that I have never done the TOS!!

Also funny about avoiding that one particular DCFC station...

That's exactly what the service manager told me yesterday!!
Say What?? Like,, that one is getting water in my electrons? It has a strange voodoo that can't be technically be explained?
(I have a ChargePoint email saying that station has been used many times before and after my incident, never a complaint.)

And he said if I ever get caught using that particular DCFC station and break down again,,,, NO MORE WARRANTY.
OK, he is just following whatever HQ is telling him. I asked for that in writing.

And he said the car is up and running!! They were about to drive it to the prep center where their 24kW DCFC is located.
The car would be ready on Monday. They want to test if for while longer.

And then, I find a vmail from him around 6PM saying the car failed again at their DCFC center.
They are next going to replace the module that deals with DCFC functions. :?: ?duhh?? :roll: ya think?
Oh, and they were going to overnight it! Yay! I don't have to wait another week for slow-boat shipping.

ps. I'm posting this as my log of this event, sorry, if it too long.

I am a fan of Chevy's EV's! I always thought a Bolt with ACC or even GM's SuperCruise would be my next car.
Now, I'm a little curious about the KIA and Hyundai BEV offerings that are coming. The next gen LR Leaf may have LG cells and a proper TMS, and ProPILOT.

pss. You know where the shame should be every time my GM is on a tow truck??

It seems to me your dealer hasn't a clue. Did you show him the post from the guy who "really knows the Spark EV !!:"? If the "guy who knows" is correct and it fixes your Spark EV, I would think the dealer owes you a total refund plus compensation for pain and suffering! :lol:

 

[TheLondonBroiler]

Did you show him the post from the guy who "really knows the Spark EV !!:"?

I went beak and re-read what he had said. Makes perfect sense to me. Sometimes you'll have a fault that you don't want people to "easily" be able to reset, due to the potential consequences of doing so.

...I would think the dealer owes you a total refund plus compensation for pain and suffering! :lol:

Agreed, but we're probably dreaming.

Now, I'm a little curious about the KIA and Hyundai BEV offerings that are coming.

They need to construct a serious skid plate for the battery, front and rear, before I'll remotely consider. Leaving the battery as a low hanging object is ridiculous, even more so if it's the same on the 40kwh pack, which I assume it will be.

the car failed again at their DCFC center.

I tried 4 attempts to charge at the GM dealership in Hickory, NC, and just couldn't. 2 different errors. Apparently BMW i3's don't have a problem....wtf GM.

Norton, do you know what model year the guy with the rebuilt spark has?

 

[NORTON]

It seems to me your dealer hasn't a clue....

I don't expect my local tech to be the greatest Chevy BEV Trouble Shooter West of the Mississippi.

They have guys that sit on their azz all day in Detroit answering the phone and emails from techs in the field.
Those guys, and whoever authors the 'Trouble Tree' and provides training courses for Chevy EV Techs, are supposed to know this chit inside and out.

 

[NORTON]

...Norton, do you know what model year the guy with the rebuilt spark has?

He has a '15 w/DCFC, just like you.

I don't want to have to buy one of these: https://www.amazon.com/VXDIAG-Multiple-TIS2WEB-Diagnostic-Programming/dp/B01NACTAY8
And you may need a subscription from GM for some of the features, I'm not clear on that.
If I still have my '14 Spark EV when its 100k warranty is up I may have to....

 

[SparkE]

I tried 4 attempts to charge at the GM dealership in Hickory, NC, and just couldn't. 2 different errors. Apparently BMW i3's don't have a problem....wtf GM.

1) GM doesn't own them - the dealership does. (Although I have to admit, the dealers probably buy it through GM - at least a purchase program.) (And, "it works fine at all these other brands/dealers, and it is a lot cheaper than a full-blown 125 amp DCFC" is probably a good selling point to a large company.)

2) The 24 kW DCFCs (the plaque says between 60A & 66A, depending on the reseller) are actually manufactured by a French company (IES-Synergy) which sells through a BUNCH of other companies, including Bosch, BMW, ChargePoint, etc.).

3) They have had LOTS of problems.

 

[TheLondonBroiler]

1) GM doesn't own them.. the dealers probably buy it through GM - at least a purchase program.)

This is all accurate, to my knowledge. Granted the dcfc "mandate" for Bolt EV dealers started when the BOLT EV started being produced, the fact that Spark EVs have issues charging leads me to ask, WTF GM?

2) The 24 kW DCFCs (the plaque says between 60A & 66A, depending on the reseller) are actually manufactured by a French company (IES-Synergy) which sells through a BUNCH of other companies, including Bosch, BMW, ChargePoint, etc.).

I've charged twice successfully at the Charge Point DCFC at the BMW Performance Center in Greer,SC. While it is a similar charger, I can assure you that at a minimum, the exterior case and display are different, and I would not be surprised if the electronics aren't the same either.

3) They have had LOTS of problems.

I looked a good bit through plugshare, I didn't see much in the way of issues in the southeastern US. It's possible they use different machines on the West Coast and elsewhere.


The top pic is of the machine that works for me and the bottom is the problematic style.

 

[SparkE]

Well, it looks like Bosch has switched vendors for their ~25 kW DCFC unit. But first, you said "they aren't broken around me" - almost every ChargePoint Express 100 on US-101 between Los Angeles and San Jose is offline at the moment. 'nuff said.

Bosch used to sell (and maybe still do) the 24 kW Power DCPlus - the ChargePoint "Express 100", which looks like this (white, blue, or orange) :

and now they sell this one (25 kW EV2000 Series) :

 

[SparkE]

Oh, and I'm pretty sure that the insides (electronics) are completely different, as the ChargePoint (orange) one requires 3-phase input, whereas the other one can accept 240V single-phase (so the installation can be a LOT cheaper, depending on what the existing electricals are like).

 

[NORTON]

...The top pic is of the machine that works for me and the bottom is the problematic style.

The bottom screen shot is funny.
3.6kWh charging rate (DCFC)
3.6kWh is a quantity of power. It is not a rate like 24kW.

But it's great to see pics of these small new style DCFC units. They have to be solid state.
The Efacec 50kW units in the KC metro area are as big as refrigerators,,, sitting out in the corner a grocery store parking lots and parking garages.
They are based on big-ass transformers and are always on 3 ph power.
I got to look inside of one when I was dealing with a service rep. There is lots of open space inside. Always two cords: CCS/Chademo. Small cell phone antenna on top.


Either way:
These units are up and running and hopefully network connected so you know if they're available.
Or they are dead, INOP, off line....

They should not take out an $800 un-powertrain related part,,,, that the car owner has to pay for.
And they don't. :roll:

My dealer and GM EV Engineering Support is having a learning moment with my car.
And hopefully they'll get serious about learning something new and not sticking me with the learning bill..... :? (3 weeks in the shop, this time.)

Side Note: There was a report that GM bought or is partnering with a 150kW DCFC unit manufacturer. They said these units were solid state.

The future looks bright ! :!:

I just need the desk jockeys to get up to speed on seriously Trouble Shooting the BEV's that Chevy has out in the field NOW....

 

[NORTON]

Case Closed:

I just got my car back from the dealer.
Had to finally pay $200 Labor for the Power Train Warranty repair.

Not too impressive Troubleshooting Techniques, GM.....

 

[TheLondonBroiler]

So the first time they replaced HPCM2 and this time they replaced.....(HPCM1?)? Have you revisited the airport run charger yet ?

 

[NORTON]

So the first time they replaced HPCM2 and this time they replaced.....(HPCM1?)? Have you revisited the airport run charger yet ?

I will use that same DCFC unit next time. They backed off that silly claim that I was getting water in the electrons at that station.... :roll: :lol:

This is what I have from the paper work, below.
Initially they wanted $800 for my 'Voltec Warranty Repair' , due to GM's old fashioned way of Troubleshooting.

Paper work has:
AFTER REPLACEMENT OF SDM, CODE PIFF4-00 WOULDN'T CLEAR OUT OF
HPCM2- ART WARRANTY OF HPCM2
HAD INTERNAL FAILURE OF MODULE
PER TAC REPLACED HPCM2.

Above this info it lists 'FP-NUMBER':
13518048
24283993
Then a -1 for Core Return of same number.
23453239 ----I looked this one up: Inverter & mounting, battery disconnect. Spark EV. Acsry dc pwr cont. With fast charging.

Yep, the 3rd guess was the WINNER !!

So,, 3 "MODULES". There is no description of these parts.

I know the 1st time the HPCM2 was replaced, and the car failed at the next DCFC session 1 week later.

'TAC' is the group at GM that has some splainin to do. They write the manuals and advise on servicing GM's problem childs. The dealers are at their mercy, if they want to get paid for warranty work.

In summary:
I always thought a Bolt, with more High Tech, would be my next EV.
Now,,, I have to look at the newest Kia, Hyundai, and Nissan BEV's when they become available. On paper they are competitive with the Bolt, and they may have the High Tech features I want.

 

[NORTON]

Case Closed:

Last Saturday I paid $200 in Labor Charges to get my car back from the dealer after this Voltec Warranty Repair. They dropped it to that and I caved....
During that 5 week ordeal I probably spent more than that on gas for my gasser that me and the GF shared.

Not very impressive Troubleshooting Techniques, GM....

But it is SO great to be driving this sporty little BEV again! For Free again.

Near the end of that time I bought a 2011 Prius Level 5 with the Advanced Technology Package in Blizzard Pearl. This was THE most expensive Prius of that year!!
The ATP is fun! It's an early Gen 'Auto Pilot', parks itself, Adaptive Cruise Control, Lane Keep Assist and other safety features.

Anyways,,, I now call the Prius the Fuel Hog...

 

[NORTON]

Small update:

So, I get this call from GM HQ.
A nice young gentleman is telling me he'd like to give me a $100 Service Voucher to use for only my Spark EV.

I say, "Thanks for the offer! That eases the sting of paying $200 for a Powertrain Warranty Repair".
But I point out that there is NO SERVICE SCHEDULED for my Spark EV until 97.5k miles, and that is for the Drive Unit Fluid change (ATF).

And that is one of the reasons some Chevy Dealers hate EV's....

(I don't rotate the tires because of different wheels front and rear and directional tires. Lots of cars are like that.)

I ask about getting an upgrade for my Onstar service instead.
He said that may be possible and I'm waiting to hear back from him.