hydrogen Source and re-fill

[buickanddeere]

If the vehicle manufactures go with hydrogen ? Will the H2 sourced from natural gas or electrolysis of water ? How much is the stuff going to cost ?
Home filling will be a challenge ?
High pressure tanks or metal hydride storage ?

 

[gra]

If the vehicle manufactures go with hydrogen ? Will the H2 sourced from natural gas or electrolysis of water ? How much is the stuff going to cost ?
Home filling will be a challenge ?
High pressure tanks or metal hydride storage ?

I can't speak for Japan or Europe, but there will be a variety of sources here in California. Some will be from SMR from NG, some from biogas (municipal sewage used for heat/electricity/H2), some electrolysis from wind/solar/nuclear, etc. The requirement is that a minimum of 33% comes from renewables, and they are building several 100% renewable H2 stations. The plan is to move to 100% renewables ASA economically possible.

Pricing is in flux, but everyone realizes that it has to be less expensive than gas or diesel to work, and they're aiming to get it down to no more than $2-$4/kg retail (H2 will be sold by the kg). Home filling is unlikely anytime soon owing to current costs and safety regulations, although it is possible.

At the moment, everyone is using HP tanks, but R&D on metal hydride and carbon nanotube storage continues.

Details of the rollout in Calfornia can be found here:

http://www.arb.ca.gov/msprog/zevprog/ab8/ab8_report_final_june2014.pdf

or you can go over to http://www.mynissanleaf.com/viewtopic.php?f=7&t=14744

where the issues surrounding H2 infrastructure and fuel cells have been discussed at great length (and with much repetition), but there's a lot of very informative links and info buried in the verbiage. Be warned - the thread is currently up to page 101!

And an excellent source to keep up to date is http://www.greencarcongress.com/topics.html

Read the"Fuel Cell", "Hydrogen Storage" and "Hydrogen" topics.

 

[buickanddeere]

Any possibility that the BEV will become the next Beta VCR or HD DVD ?

 

[NomadMac]

I hope not since I can't make hydrogen on my rooftop.

 

[emv]

I don't think you'll ever convince the average 'Mercan that it's a good idea to drive around with a tank of highly explosive hydrogen in the trunk. (Yes I know it's safer than gasoline, but the image of the Hindenburg is etched into the common psyche).

On the other hand, it's big oil's fuel of choice.

It's entirely possible that each fills a different niche and will co-exist for years.

 

[gra]

Any possibility that the BEV will become the next Beta VCR or HD DVD ?

Just depends on the relative rate at which FCEVs and BEVs improve. Each has advantages and disadvantages at the moment, and the competition will keep both technologies advancing, until we can pick a winner (or both win).

 

[gra]

I don't think you'll ever convince the average 'Mercan that it's a good idea to drive around with a tank of highly explosive hydrogen in the trunk. (Yes I know it's safer than gasoline, but the image of the Hindenburg is etched into the common psyche).

On the other hand, it's big oil's fuel of choice.

It's entirely possible that each fills a different niche and will co-exist for years.

Famous last words: "You can't get people to sit on top of a bunch of explosions", said by an early auto maker (Albert Pope?) ca. 1898, as he explained why BEVs would win out over ICEs. Let's just say that his claim didn't hold up. Yeah, we've all seen the Hindenberg, even though we now know that the fire's initial fuel source was the aluminized dopant on the outer cover. But all H2 producers have to do is show any of the regular pictures or video of gas car fires or show the statistics, and that problem will fade away fairly quickly. People quickly come to accept potential catastrophic risks, as long as they're relatively rare. Natural gas heating and cooking? Your house is a bomb just waiting to happen.

 

[TonyWilliams]

Famous last words: "You can't get people to sit on top of a bunch of explosions", said by an early auto maker (Albert Pope?) ca. 1898, as he explained why BEVs would win out over ICEs. Let's just say that his claim didn't hold up.... Natural gas heating and cooking? Your house is a bomb just waiting to happen.

Safety or danger won't win the day for hydrogen or electric cars, just as cigarettes, alcohol, and gasoline do just fine in sales.

But, price will.

Hydrogen stations cost an order or magnitude more than a quick charge station, and the electricity infrastructure is already present. In addition, hydrogen needs a carrier to split (with electricity) like natural gas or water, which adds cost. And, of course, hydrogen needs electricity, and lots of it.

Every argument that has hydrogen as the end game over looks the unsubsidized costs of hydrogen and underestimates where batteries will be in 20-50 years.

 

[emv]

Earlier I was being tongue in cheek about the dangers of hydrogen vs gasoline - remember the Pinto - but I still think the average American is going to be leery of hydrogen. Yes, an ad campaign could overcome this.

I much prefer a pure electric system but hydrogen has one very big advantage over BEV's. Big oil, and big oil's money. As one of the more cost effective ways to extract hydrogen starts with petroleum, this gives them a vested interest here.

The only problem with being a cynic is that you're right too often!

 

[gra]

Earlier I was being tongue in cheek about the dangers of hydrogen vs gasoline - remember the Pinto - but I still think the average American is going to be leery of hydrogen. Yes, an ad campaign could overcome this.

I much prefer a pure electric system but hydrogen has one very big advantage over BEV's. Big oil, and big oil's money. As one of the more cost effective ways to extract hydrogen starts with petroleum, this gives them a vested interest here.

The only problem with being a cynic is that you're right too often!

Yes, they've got the capital, a point of sale billing model with which we have over a century of successful experience, and the real estate in the right places. The problem with QCs is that no one has been able to come up with point of sale billing that costs less than gas for a Prius, because the use is so intermittent, demand charges often apply, and the number of vehicles you can service in one day so limited. So, while (as Tony says) H2 dispensers currently cost an order of magnitude more than a QC, they will also be able to be used far more intensively because they can be placed where people are, and will be used regularly by anyone with an FCEV (at least until home H2 refueling becomes economical).

Gas stations also cost about an order of magnitude more than QCs, but no one is saying that makes them too expensive to build. The important economic issues are getting H2 costs below that of gas, and getting FCEVs down to comparable prices with ICEs, or at least to the point where TCO comes out ahead in a reasonable number of years. And, of course, on how fast BEVs decrease their cost/improve their range and recharging time.

 

[nozferatu]

Hydrogen may win over electric for some industries..mostly very heavy and airborne where electric tech just isn't there yet. But for ground transport, electric is the way to go and will remain that way I think for a long time to come. This jousting is just that...just a delay to electric tech for ground vehicles.

 

[gra]

Hydrogen may win over electric for some industries..mostly very heavy and airborne where electric tech just isn't there yet. But for ground transport, electric is the way to go and will remain that way I think for a long time to come. This jousting is just that...just a delay to electric tech for ground vehicles.

As I'm always at pains to point out, H2 is electric tech, as they are FCEVs, i.e. electric vehicles. As to which wins out, we'll see, but it's always nice to have competition to keep companies motivated to improve their offerings.

 

[nmikmik]

Hydrogen may win over electric for some industries..mostly very heavy and airborne where electric tech just isn't there yet. But for ground transport, electric is the way to go and will remain that way I think for a long time to come. This jousting is just that...just a delay to electric tech for ground vehicles.

Speaking of the heavy industries, similar "truck" been made for decades by Russians with diesel generators and electric motors. Today, in fact, the biggest hauler made.

http://www.e-mj.com/features/3410-belaz-builds-the-world-s-largest-haul-truck.html#.U-cAd2PQqNE

 

[Sesamecrunch]

Why is the debate about hydrogen vs electric cars? Why can't both co-exist? It seems to me that the market is big enough to support both. The logical, initial niche for hydrogen is for fleets - like delivery trucks and buses, etc. The logical niche for EVs is commuters with defined ranges.

I subscribe to the theory that there is no single, silver bullet to solve our energy and environmental needs. Let as many technologies arise as possible and let them find their economical and environmental niches.

 

[nozferatu]

Why is the debate about hydrogen vs electric cars? Why can't both co-exist? It seems to me that the market is big enough to support both. The logical, initial niche for hydrogen is for fleets - like delivery trucks and buses, etc. The logical niche for EVs is commuters with defined ranges.

I subscribe to the theory that there is no single, silver bullet to solve our energy and environmental needs. Let as many technologies arise as possible and let them find their economical and environmental niches.

I think both may exist. However they are suited for different things.

However, as material technology advances and we have breakthroughs in battery tech, battery size and mass should decrease and energy density will increase.

One has to graph the relationship to energy density to mass to see the direction and rate of change in which batteries are developing. As it stands, a current EV is 6-10 times more efficient than an IC vehicle at the wheel.

We can only imagine how high the efficiency will rise once lower mass and increased energy density are realized. For kicks, the Tesla battery weighs in at around 1300lbs. Imagine that going down by half or two-thirds. Or the Spark's battery cut by half.

Clearly we can truly optimize ground transport by using advanced materials which are now becoming cheaper and cheaper.

 

[TonyWilliams]

Hydrogen may win over electric for some industries..mostly very heavy and airborne where electric tech just isn't there yet. But for ground transport, electric is the way to go and will remain that way I think for a long time to come. This jousting is just that...just a delay to electric tech for ground vehicles.

As I'm always at pains to point out, H2 is electric tech, as they are FCEVs, i.e. electric vehicles. As to which wins out, we'll see, but it's always nice to have competition to keep companies motivated to improve their offerings.

I'm at "pains" to correct you, because BMW (among others) have built internal combustion hydrogen cars.

If you want to keep selling hydrogen as "electric", great, let's just dismiss the hydrogen part and make it easier.

 

[TonyWilliams]

I subscribe to the theory that there is no single, silver bullet to solve our energy and environmental needs. Let as many technologies arise as possible and let them find their economical and environmental niches.

If your environmental niche is a carbon polluter, then hydrogen is for you. If paying more per mile for energy is your cup of tea, hydrogen is for you.

See, they can co-exist.

 

[Sesamecrunch]

I subscribe to the theory that there is no single, silver bullet to solve our energy and environmental needs. Let as many technologies arise as possible and let them find their economical and environmental niches.

If your environmental niche is a carbon polluter, then hydrogen is for you. If paying more per mile for energy is your cup of tea, hydrogen is for you.

No, hydrogen would not be for me. I love my EV and solar panels on the roof.

My point is the more choice the better. Different users will decide on what's best for them.

 

[gra]

Hydrogen may win over electric for some industries..mostly very heavy and airborne where electric tech just isn't there yet. But for ground transport, electric is the way to go and will remain that way I think for a long time to come. This jousting is just that...just a delay to electric tech for ground vehicles.

As I'm always at pains to point out, H2 is electric tech, as they are FCEVs, i.e. electric vehicles. As to which wins out, we'll see, but it's always nice to have competition to keep companies motivated to improve their offerings.

I'm at "pains" to correct you, because BMW (among others) have built internal combustion hydrogen cars.

If you want to keep selling hydrogen as "electric", great, let's just dismiss the hydrogen part and make it easier.

True, I was sloppy in my wording. While it's possible to burn H2 in an ICE, only 'FCEVs', 'FCHVs', and 'PHFCEVs' are electric tech among H2-fueled vehicles.

 

[TonyWilliams]

No, hydrogen would not be for me. I love my EV and solar panels on the roof.

My point is the more choice the better. Different users will decide on what's best for them.

The "choice" answer... well, people in most of the world choose oil. Without government intervention, that's likely the only choice we would have today.

Make no mistake; the hydrogen and battery electric car choices we have today are almost entirely due to government mandates. Not choices.