Leased a Spark EV with the SAE Combo charging port on 6 Jan

[corwin]

Am at loss when you refer to the CCS combo. Think it is the same as the SAE Combo [Society of Automotive Engineers combined with a J1772 plug]. Correct? kenn

You're right. I'm mixing my terminology a bit. CCS is actually Combined Charging System and thus CCS combo is a bit redundant. I think for around here SAE combo is the preferred nomenclature. It all means DC quick charging.
-Corwin

 

[gra]

Am at loss when you refer to the CCS combo. Think it is the same as the SAE Combo [Society of Automotive Engineers combined with a J1772 plug]. Correct? kenn

You're right. I'm mixing my terminology a bit. CCS is actually Combined Charging System and thus CCS combo is a bit redundant. I think for around here SAE combo is the preferred nomenclature. It all means DC quick charging.
-Corwin

I just use CCS myself, short and easy to type (beats CHAdeMO all to hell on that score).

 

[NomadMac]

CHAdeMO beats Jay Seventeen Seventy Two, though.

 

[psykokid]

I actually spoke with a technician at efacec and tried a charge session with him on the phone. The tech was quite knowledgeable and is convinced his charger will work with the Spark EV. But something is clearly bad. With his help I got an error code to display. So he's going to check that out and get back to me. Unfortunately, I'm on business travel until 1/30 so any input from me will have to wait until my return.
-Corwin

Looking on plugshare a few people seem to have had problems with that station in the last week with both CHAdeMO and SAE Combo. Seems like whatever it is just may be the station itself, not your car.

 

[kenn]

Hi Corwin,
Will be looking forward to your post on 1/30. Where exactly is the charge station located? Have relatives in San Jose area which is 45 miles and couple of side trips would put me over the battery capacity. My reason for getting the SAE Combo was to avoid long charge times using Level I & II chargers. kenn


"I actually spoke with a technician at efacec and tried a charge session with him on the phone. The tech was quite knowledgeable and is convinced his charger will work with the Spark EV. But something is clearly bad. With his help I got an error code to display. So he's going to check that out and get back to me. Unfortunately, I'm on business travel until 1/30 so any input from me will have to wait until my return.
-Corwin"

 

[cwerdna]

Hi Corwin,
Will be looking forward to your post on 1/30. Where exactly is the charge station located? Have relatives in San Jose area which is 45 miles and couple of side trips would put me over the battery capacity. My reason for getting the SAE Combo was to avoid long charge times using Level I & II chargers. kenn


"I actually spoke with a technician at efacec and tried a charge session with him on the phone. The tech was quite knowledgeable and is convinced his charger will work with the Spark EV. But something is clearly bad. With his help I got an error code to display. So he's going to check that out and get back to me. Unfortunately, I'm on business travel until 1/30 so any input from me will have to wait until my return.
-Corwin"

Why is it that you have such odd posts when you need to quote (and sometimes don't need to quote) someone? In some of your older posts, you'd copy and paste all sorts of weird extraneous crap in your posts.

Do you know understand how the quote tags work? Just use those and leave in the parts that are relevant.

You will soon discover that not only will you need to find working DC FCs, you'd also want:
- them to be reasonably priced
- have plenty of nearby backups
- be compatible w/your vehicle
- be reliable
- not have a big long line
- be accessible when you need them
- be repaired quickly when they go down

FWIW, the CHAdeMO network here in Nor Cal isn't great and Blink's $5 fees and crap equipment don't help. And, for an automaker (Nissan) who is very serious about EVs, here are some problems.
- http://www.plugshare.com/?location=5040 - DC FC has been down for weeks
- http://www.plugshare.com/?location=14866 - ditto
- http://www.plugshare.com/?location=1382 - I leased my Leaf from them, I don't live anywhere close to them but can't really depend on using them on trips up north (to say SF) because of limited access hours and lines. Someone I know posted about DC FCing there but there were 5 Leafs waiting in line behind her! I don't have that kind of time!

I posted about my single use of my CHAdeMO port at http://www.mynissanleaf.com/viewtopic.php?p=327440#p327440 before. Another time when I was at that dealer (is listed above), the DC FC was showing a temperature fault. I didn't need a charge though. For me, for my uses, the CHAdeMO port was a waste of money, despite a much more ubiquitous network (but again, not good in Nor Cal) than Frankenplug.

Let's see if any Frankenplug DC FCs show up at Chevy dealers...

 

[kenn]

Sour grapes!

 

[cwerdna]

Sour grapes!

Not really. Just being realistic.

On the other hand, those in Western WA and OR state have a very good CHAdeMO network and I know one person (and some others via the Seattle area Leaf FB group) that use their CHAdeMO port a lot and find it almost indispensable for their trips.

Japan also has a VERY extensive CHAdeMO DC FC network.

 

[gra]

Sour grapes!

Not really. Just being realistic.

Indeed. Almost all CHAdeMO QCs have been singles, which makes it impossible to count on them being available even if you could count on them being operational, which is unlikely if they're Blinks. Only Tesla has done it right, installing multiple superchargers at each location. If the CCS-using auto and charge companies don't do a better job of deployment and also provide high reliability so that you can depend on them being available, CCS will be just as limited in usefulness as CHAdeMo is.

On the other hand, those in Western WA and OR state have a very good CHAdeMO network and I know one person (and some others via the Seattle area Leaf FB group) that use their CHAdeMO port a lot and find it almost indispensable for their trips.

Japan also has a VERY extensive CHAdeMO DC FC network.

Yes, the AV chargers seem to be a fair amount more reliable than Blinks, but they too are almost all singles, albeit usually with co-located L2. But locations where you want QCs (enroute) are usually not the same as where L2s make sense (several hour-stay destinations), so this is something of a 'better than nothing' proposition.

 

[kenn]

What we say or do in relation to QC's probably will not make any significant difference. Since this is a Spark EV board, would think that all posters would have some interest in promote the SAE Combo QC. Each person, within reason, can say what they think. kenn

 

[TonyWilliams]

What we say or do in relation to QC's probably will not make any significant difference. Since this is a Spark EV board, would think that all posters would have some interest in promote the SAE Combo QC. Each person, within reason, can say what they think. kenn

Which is why I've spent a good deal of effort and time attempting to educate folks before they just blindly buy a Spark EV and then wonder why there's no place to charge.

Like the Nissan LEAF (100,000 sold) or Tesla Model S (30,000 sold), the folks who own those cars are likely to want to promote the charging system applicable to their car, and both of those charging networks are growing fast.

The problem is simple and stark; GM built about 600 Spark EV's, and so far, perhaps a few dozen cars even have Frankenplug capability. Some of the less than 10 public Frankenplug stations don't even work. In the future, GM will continue to build the Spark EV at about 100 or less per month to comply with California Air Resources Board mandates.

None of the other Frankenplug consortium have any concrete plans for any EV that will use Frankenplug, except BMW, and those cars will be priced so high, I have low expectations as to how many will be actually be built. They are currently talking about $800 - $900 monthly leases for a BMW i3.

Does that frame the problem for the future of Frankenplug in an understandable way? Certainly, you're welcome to promote it, but GM doesn't functionally promote Frankenplug installed stations, like serious EV manufacturers like Nissan, Renault and Tesla do, nor will they. Perhaps BMW will install some Frankenplug stations at dealers, but good luck charging your Spark there.

No amount of hoping or promoting will change these prima facia issues.

 

[xylhim]

Tony, why do you care so much if people throw their money into fast charge? Also, when the Leaf was out in its first six months, how many fast chargers were there installed in California? I know you don't like the Spark, being a compliance car and all, but there are other forums you can go to and bash the car; your needlessly stirring the hostility pot.


It's like me going over to the Leaf forum and saying that it's range is shorter than the Spark, it's acceleration is poor in comparison, the blind spots are terrible and it makes it hard to drive in a city, the cost is higher, the availability of fast chargers for the Leaf is nice but means nothing for my daily commute, it's ugly (though the Spark doesn't look much better), its from a Japanese company, Etc, etc.

However, I appreciate your postivie EV posts about assembling a community of EV advocates, that pushes the tech and it's reputation in the right direction.

 

[NomadMac]

Ugh. I was ready to go to Colma today and lease the Spark with CCS they have in stock. I know there's a plan to put CCS in Pt. Reyes Station but that Charge Point has no plans to support CCS. This is the one Achiles' heel with the Spark, the lack of fast charging network combined with a 3.3 charger.

A lease is three years. I wish I could see a year or two out to see the adoption rate and whether to just spend the money on a faster home charger with anticipation of a faster charging EV in my future in 3 years. I already have a 20 amp outlet in my garage.

If I don't get CCS, am I going to kick myself in 18 months? What a conundrum.

 

[TonyWilliams]

Ugh. I was ready to go to Colma today and lease the Spark with CCS they have in stock. I know there's a plan to put CCS in Pt. Reyes Station but that Charge Point has no plans to support CCS...

If I don't get CCS, am I going to kick myself in 18 months? What a conundrum.

There are a whole bunch of companies that don't support Frankenplug. If I were buying a Spark EV, and lived in a major metro area of California (San Diego, LA, SF, and Sacramento), and never planned to use the car outside those areas (3.3kW J1772 charging is brutal for traveling), and you can wait 3-4 years for NRG / EVgo to install their obligation of 200 Frankenplug chargers, I would buy it.

If I was only leasing for 24-36 months, eh, maybe not.

It's hard to say what will prevail in 5-10 years... Tesla Superchargers, maybe?

 

[TonyWilliams]

It's like me going over to the Leaf forum and saying that it's range is shorter than the Spark, it's acceleration is poor in comparison, the blind spots are terrible and it makes it hard to drive in a city, the cost is higher, the availability of fast chargers for the Leaf is nice but means nothing for my daily commute, it's ugly (though the Spark doesn't look much better), its from a Japanese company, Etc, etc.

You do know that the Spark EV is built in South Korea, right? I'm not comparing LEAFs to Spark EV's, and most of the stuff you posted is factual. Why would I care what you post about the LEAF (or Spark EV)? Knock yourself out.

I tend to work from facts, and few have ever (successfully) challenged the facts concerning Frankenplug. Hey, nobody has to believe me... Look around. Where are all the Franken-stations?

If you can't quite understand the difference between Nissan showing up with virtually ZERO production EV's worldwide and absolutely ZERO of the public DC quick chargers worldwide ever, to now with over 100,000 cars and many thousands of existing public DC chargers, and compare that to having GM show up with a pure compliance car sold in the hundreds total in two CARB states with less than 10 public Frankenplugs, none of which they paid for or installed. Sorry, I can't help you jump that fence. If you want to believe it will all work out OK, great !!!

I think the whole Franken-fiasco is a detriment to mass EV adoption, and I will continue to state what is obvious to me. As a strong EV advocate, I don't like things that threaten to slow down EV adoption.

To the guy up-thread who couldn't charge at two different FrankenStations, I'll bet he drove by a bunch of CHAdeMO ones. Imagine if all the cars used just one public charging station protocol?

However, I appreciate your postivie EV posts about assembling a community of EV advocates, that pushes the tech and it's reputation in the right direction.

Thanks! I hope every Spark EV owner can show up on August 10, 2014 for the World's Largest Electric Vehicle Gathering in Long Beach, California.

 

[kenn]

Hi Tony,

A very important point you keep 'forgetting' to mention is that all American and European EV manufactures have agreed to support the SAE Combo charger which you keep refereeing to as a 'frankenplug' plug as if it was some kind of monster. If you choose not to use it, fine with me. If you want to present facts, please feel free. Present all, not just the ones that shed a negative light on the Spark EV and it's SAE Combo plug. How many CHAdeMO DC chargers were on the market six months after the Leaf was first introduced?

We know where the Spark EV is assembled presently. The batteries and electric motor are built in the US.

You keep calling the Spark EV a compliance car. You may be correct, but I and others hope not because we have the car. Did you call the Volt a compliance car when it was first built?

An initial scenario may be a dual standard as proposed by some. kenn

 

[TonyWilliams]

Hi Tony, A very important point you keep 'forgetting' to mention is that all American and European EV manufactures have agreed to support the SAE Combo charger which you keep refereeing to as a 'frankenplug' plug as if it was some kind of monster.

This must be the factual challenge! Ah, neither all the American, nor all the European auto manufacturers adopted Frankenplug. I can always tell when somebody has learned the talking points, but not the facts.

In the US, the only US based auto maker that gives even PR support is GM. Tesla Motors (a genuine American car company) will never adopt Frankenplug.

Neither Ford, nor Fiat / Chrysler, have any publicized plans to offer a Frankenplug car, and both produce EV's in minimum numbers for CARB-ZEV, just like GM does. I personally don't include Fiat as a US company, but maybe you do. They are now a majority owner of Chrysler, are based in Europe, and do not endorse Frankenplug.

As to "all of Europe", I find it odd how many times that I point out to folks that the five auto makers from Germany aren't all of Europe. But, to some people, maybe they are! I do know how many of them are actively producing, or planning to produce, a Frankenplug car; one, BMW.

By the way, did you know that the German version of Frankenplug and the GM version aren't interchangeable, right? Maybe that wasn't in the PR flak, that thankfully we don't see too much of anymore from the Frankenplug bloc.

As to the "monster" statement concerning Frankenplug, during a Tesla shareholder's call, when the SAE standard was pointed out to Tesla CEO Elon Musk, he said "Yes, the SAE have a standard. But it sucks." Which is why TM went its own way. So, if one of the most successful serial entrepreneurs in history talks, people tend to listen, particularly when he produces one of the most celebrated EV's in history. I tend to agree with him a lot.

How many CHAdeMO DC chargers were on the market six months after the Leaf was first introduced?

Perhaps you read my analogy to this situation above? The one about no DC charger or production EV's of any kind when Nissan showed up in late 2010, and now there are a 100,000 cars (heck, way over 100,000 cars) and thousands of DC chargers.

So, should GM actually actively enter the market like Nissan and Tesla, they are not without a SERIOUS bunch of competition, at a minimum, that Nissan didn't have. You do get that, right?

So, like always, believe whatever you need to make you feel good, but facts are facts.

You keep calling the Spark EV a compliance car. You may be correct, but I and others hope not because we have the car. Did you call the Volt a compliance car when it was first built?

The Volt is not, and was not, a ZEV compliance car. You do realize that it burns hydrocarbons, making it decidedly not a zero emission vehicle?

Spark EV is a pure compliance car, but if you want to "hope" for something else, be my guest. I'll just stick with facts. My Toyota Rav4 EV that I drive is also a pure compliance-only car. And the Honda Fit EV, et al.

Cars built to gain market share with a profit motive; Tesla, Mitsubishi, Nissan, Renault. You can agree, or not, but it doesn't change the facts.

An initial scenario may be a dual standard as proposed by some. kenn

There nothing "initial" about thousands of existing chargers all around the world, and GM and all the German auto makers trying to nudge into the table (not very gracefully, I might add).

Yes, there will be dual chargers. Every single one will have a CHAdeMO with it, on top of the thousands already installed. I think that was the smartest move yet by CHAdeMO. Thousands of existing stand alone chargers and growing fast, and the moribund Frankenplug always with a CHAdeMO right beside it. I know who wins that war, and so do you.

 

[cwerdna]

Tony, why do you care so much if people throw their money into fast charge? Also, when the Leaf was out in its first six months, how many fast chargers were there installed in California? I know you don't like the Spark, being a compliance car and all, but there are other forums you can go to and bash the car; your needlessly stirring the hostility pot.

It's like me going over to the Leaf forum and saying that it's range is shorter than the Spark, it's acceleration is poor in comparison, the blind spots are terrible and it makes it hard to drive in a city, the cost is higher, the availability of fast chargers for the Leaf is nice but means nothing for my daily commute, it's ugly (though the Spark doesn't look much better), its from a Japanese company, Etc, etc.

I don't see Tony's posts as bashing the Spark EV. He's trying to educate the unwashed masses about the realities of Frankenplug. He's very consistent, esp. if you look at his posts elsewhere (e.g. teslamotorsclub.com, before the Spark EV even shipped).

It's a standard that which has only 1 (wildcard) supporter who is serious about EVs: BMW. They aren't even shipping their Franeknplug car in the US yet.

Otherwise, it seems like it was a "standard" created w/the purpose of slowing down Nissan. And, GM tried pulling a bunch of shenanigans in the California Senate as well. We went over this at http://www.mychevysparkev.com/forum/viewtopic.php?p=4880#p4880.

Tony even helped run a Spark EV range test! See below:
http://www.mynissanleaf.com/viewtopic.php?p=315987#p315987
http://www.mynissanleaf.com/viewtopic.php?p=316533#p316533
http://insideevs.com/real-world-test-shows-chevy-spark-ev-has-substainally-more-range-than-nissan-leaf-62-mph-wvideo/

The above confirmed it has longer range than the Leaf over the same course and speed.

Go and buy/lease a car based on its own merits. If one is expecting a widely-deployed, well-supported, reliable DC FC infrastructure in the US or in the 2 states where the Spark EV is sold, then buying/leasing a Frankenplug car right now is a bad idea.

As for the "(Leaf's) blind spots are terrible", BS (as someone who has been leasing an '13 Leaf SV for 6 months). The rear visibility is admittedly poor if you leave the rear head restraints up. The workaround is to remove them or turn them 90 degrees.

A very important point you keep 'forgetting' to mention is that all American and European EV manufactures have agreed to support the SAE Combo charger which you keep refereeing to as a 'frankenplug' plug as if it was some kind of monster. If you choose not to use it, fine with me. If you want to present facts, please feel free. Present all, not just the ones that shed a negative light on the Spark EV and it's SAE Combo plug.

"Forgetting"? Well, look again at the list at http://www.mychevysparkev.com/forum/viewtopic.php?p=4975#p4975. Where are all those American and European EV manufactures in the US w/their Frankenplug cars and Frankenplug DC FCs? Some of those don't even sell any vehicles in the US.

Actions speak louder than words.

Did you call the Volt a compliance car when it was first built?

It isn't. It was sold in more states than CA. In fact, the 2011 Volt and early '12 Volts didn't even meet the AT-PZEV nor enhAT-PZEV requirements (http://green.autoblog.com/2011/11/16/new-enhat-pzev-chevy-volt-ready-for-california-hov-access-extra/ and http://green.autoblog.com/2010/09/01/chevrolet-volt-will-not-be-eligible-for-hov-lane-access-until-mi/), so it's likely that it didn't help towards ZEV compliance (http://www.arb.ca.gov/msprog/zevprog/zevcredits/2012zevcredits.htm). (My 06 Prius is AT-PZEV.)

 

[kenn]

On salary or do you have an ax to grind?

 

[cwerdna]

On salary or do you have an ax to grind?

Who me? No ax to grind, just stating reality.

My work has nothing to do w/EVs nor charging standards/infrastructure other than my employer generously providing free L2 charging @ work.

We can take further debate/discussion of merits and where each standard is going to http://www.mychevysparkev.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=7&t=3555.