Why is Spark EV sales so poor?

[TonyWilliams]

This weekend, I intend to drive the 500 miles from San Diego to the San Francisco Bay area, and return, in my Toyota RAV4 EV with a prototype CHAdeMO inlet. If there was a CHAdeMO station in San Luis Obispo, I could make the trip entirely on CHAdeMO.

My last CHAdeMO station will be Santa Barbara before driving 233 miles to the next CHAdeMO in Monterey.

I will charge in Los Angeles area, Thousand Oaks, Santa Barbara, San Luis Obispo (40 amp J1772 AC), and Monterey. I can get there in one day, and return in one day.

Tony, you're a brave man to be trying this so early in the development cycle, after so few hookups. Are you going to have any backup along in case smoke starts pouring out from under the hood, or everything just goes tilt and shuts down? Someone with a truck, a tow hitch and a flatbed trailer or at least a cradle would seem to be a good idea.

Really? Smoke?

No, I won't have a support truck / crew. The worst thing that I expect is a vehicle shut down or incompatibility issue with the multitude of brands of CHAdeMO chargers.

This *is* the development cycle. Nothing "brave" about it. If I get stuck, I'll call AAA for a tow.

 

[gra]

Tony, you're a brave man to be trying this so early in the development cycle, after so few hookups. Are you going to have any backup along in case smoke starts pouring out from under the hood, or everything just goes tilt and shuts down? Someone with a truck, a tow hitch and a flatbed trailer or at least a cradle would seem to be a good idea.

Really? Smoke?

No, I won't have a support truck / crew. The worst thing that I expect is a vehicle shut down or incompatibility issue with the multitude of brands of CHAdeMO chargers.

This *is* the development cycle. Nothing "brave" about it. If I get stuck, I'll call AAA for a tow.

Sure, smoke's a possibility, that's why the first power up of a new electrical component is called a smoke test. As for AAA, even a Premier membership only gets you a 200 mile tow, and worst case (if your shutdown occurs in the Bay Area) you're looking at something around 500 miles to get home. Good luck, in any case - are you/did you catch the Blue Angels while you're up here (they're still performing right now)?

 

[sv650john]

If you're going from LA to San Diego and are too impatient to wait 30 mins for a full quick charge, then just wait 10 minutes instead; you'd have enough range to still make it to San Diego and you can L2 charge or quick charge once you're there. It will take you 10 minutes at least to swap for the gas car anyways.

Whilst it is possible (anything is possible I guess) it comes down to a matter of how much time/energy you are willing to devote to the endeavor.

I live near San Diego airport, and occasionally have family that arrives at LAX (most international flights don't go to SAN unfortunately). That is a 125 mile, or 2:07 trip each way per google maps. Which makes for approx 4:14 hrs round trip in a gas car, typically on less than 1 tank of gas (no stopping for fuel necessary).

Assuming the Spark realistically does 80-90miles on a full charge (AC on, freeway speeds)

Full charge departing SAN.
Drive to Irvine SAE Combo chargers (of which there are 2 total, without knowing whether they are occupied/working) - 82 miles / 1:24, car will be empty.
+ 30 mins to charge up

Irvine to LAX, 46 miles / 50 mins.
Pickup family at LAX.
Wait for 30mins-1hr of L2 charging, which is necessary to make it back to Irvine.
LAX to Irvine, another 46 miles / 50mins. Car is empty again.

+ 30 mins to charge up, will need a full charge to get back to San Diego.
Another 82 miles / 1:24 back to SD
Arrive in San Diego empty.

Add all these up and it comes to a best-case scenario of ~6 hours to do a trip that would've taken ~4 in any other car.
Add in the questionable reliability/availability of the Combo chargers - if I arrive in Irvine unable to pickup a SAE charge that potentially means +7 hours on L2 to continue on my journey.


This is not to say the Spark isn't a bad car. It'd be great for traveling within a city/region. But anything outside of a 40 mile radius (80 mile radius with guaranteed charging or time to charge) could potentially become a major hassle.

The only real solution to this is if there were more SAE chargers. Lots more chargers, to where you could stop wherever you please to pick up a charge. I don't want to go to a deserted mall in Irvine at 9pm and find out if a SAE charge is even available. I don't want to show up at 9pm to find out that the SAE charger isn't working or the mall is closed and I can't get home.

Economically that would incur significant costs to install so many chargers, especially with so few vehicles supporting the SAE standard. I doubt that GM is willing to spend the money to build out the infrastructure to do this. It would cost them much less to just keep a gas-engined Spark on standby at a select number of dealerships for people to use; but even that probably isn't cost effective to do so.

So that leaves us with one last option - for another company to step in and provide this service.
Perhaps Hertz/Enterprise/Avis, could offer free parking/basic charging at their 24-hour airport locations for EV's in exchange for renting a car from them. That would be a win for the EV owner and a win for the rental company.
I'd certainly pay $30-50 a day to a rental company for this privilege. Time is money, and getting stuck waiting for a 7-hr L2 charge = lots of time and money wasted.

 

[cwerdna]

Add in the questionable reliability/availability of the Combo chargers - if I arrive in Irvine unable to pickup a SAE charge that potentially means +7 hours on L2 to continue on my journey.
...
The only real solution to this is if there were more SAE chargers. Lots more chargers, to where you could stop wherever you please to pick up a charge. I don't want to go to a deserted mall in Irvine at 9pm and find out if a SAE charge is even available. I don't want to show up at 9pm to find out that the SAE charger isn't working or the mall is closed and I can't get home.

Economically that would incur significant costs to install so many chargers, especially with so few vehicles supporting the SAE standard. I doubt that GM is willing to spend the money to build out the infrastructure to do this. It would cost them much less to just keep a gas-engined Spark on standby at a select number of dealerships for people to use; but even that probably isn't cost effective to do so.

You've exactly echoed my points that I've been making over and over. But, at least w/CHAdeMO, there are WAY more units to choose from, in case one or several units are down, ICEd, etc.

And, with Tesla Supercharger, they've smartly arranged for multiple charging stalls at each location and their vehicles have great range. I see at least 2 So Cal Supercharger locations that might be helpful for such a trip.

 

[tigger19687]

I am hoping that someday they add them to every Rest area along Highways.

You would think that they would have already done that by now.
so sad that they are not thinking OUTSIDE the Box

 

[Nashco]

But, at least w/CHAdeMO, there are WAY more units to choose from, in case one or several units are down, ICEd, etc.

...today...in some areas...relatively speaking...

I've driven further using SAE Combo chargers around the Portland area than nearly all of North America can with chademo, so I think we're a long way from saturation on any EV charging front...

/troll response

I am hoping that someday they add them to every Rest area along Highways.

You would think that they would have already done that by now.
so sad that they are not thinking OUTSIDE the Box

As a person who has used one of the greatest fast charger installations in the country (all over OR and WA on the West Coast Electric Highway) extensively, I sure am glad they're not at rest areas. Restaurants, shopping malls, grocery stores, etc. are all great places to spend 20 or 30 minutes while charging. Also, most rest areas don't have easy access to large electrical power lines as required for 50+ kW charging stations, which would increase the cost of installation significantly. I'd much rather get a slice of pie and a cup of coffee or get my groceries for the week while killing a few minutes than sit and listen to cars buzz by on the highway! Any of the more remote charging stations with nothing to do are a real downer and don't make for very good sales pitches to friends considering EVs.

Bryce

 

[xylhim]

As a person who has used one of the greatest fast charger installations in the country (all over OR and WA on the West Coast Electric Highway) extensively, I sure am glad they're not at rest areas. Restaurants, shopping malls, grocery stores, etc. are all great places to spend 20 or 30 minutes while charging. Also, most rest areas don't have easy access to large electrical power lines as required for 50+ kW charging stations, which would increase the cost of installation significantly. I'd much rather get a slice of pie and a cup of coffee or get my groceries for the week while killing a few minutes than sit and listen to cars buzz by on the highway! Any of the more remote charging stations with nothing to do are a real downer and don't make for very good sales pitches to friends considering EVs.

Bryce

I disagree on the point of not installing rural/rest stop DCFS. If one is driving in the city for daily commutes, there is almost no reason to ever pay a premium for a fast charge. Using level 2 charging (level 1 even works if the commute is close enough) is perfectly suitable. By only putting DCFS in large shopping malls, it's just reinforcing the idea that EVs are limited range vehicles that can't take people wherever they want, whenever they want. Waiting 20 - 30 minutes at a rest stop isn't bad at all, do some light reading, grab a cup of coffee from a vending machine, use the restroom and continue down the road.

What is going to happen when the 200 mile EV at ~$30000 starts to go on sale? The ChaDemo and and CCS chargers will be stuck in city centers, where they will go unnoticed and unused by a majority of EV users during their standard commutes. For long distance travel, these cars will be stuck with level 2 charging, or worse yet, having to use RV parks with a portable level 2 EVSE. This is how Tesla is going to smother the competition; even the most advanced battery is nothing without a well thought out fast charging infrastructure.

 

[tigger19687]

Thank you, you have put it better then I would have.

 

[fengshui]

What is going to happen when the 200 mile EV at ~$30000 starts to go on sale? The ChaDemo and and CCS chargers will be stuck in city centers, where they will go unnoticed and unused by a majority of EV users during their standard commutes. For long distance travel, these cars will be stuck with level 2 charging, or worse yet, having to use RV parks with a portable level 2 EVSE. This is how Tesla is going to smother the competition; even the most advanced battery is nothing without a well thought out fast charging infrastructure.

It's even worse when the ChaDeMo chargers are at car dealerships, and have limited hours, surly salespeople managing access, or both.

 

[nozferatu]

If Tesla can do it, so can GM.

It's not the standard that's the problem...but people keep blaming it on that. That's just a smoke screen and feeds the trolls.

 

[cwerdna]

If Tesla can do it, so can GM.

It's not the standard that's the problem...but people keep blaming it on that. That's just a smoke screen and feeds the trolls.

If you're referring to GM building out Combo1 DC FC infrastructure, yeah... they can, but are they doing it now? Will they? And why would they? What's the business justification for them given the puny number of vehicles they sell that even have DC FC capability?

The standard has plenty to do with it. If they adopted Tesla's Supercharger standard (and paid Tesla for it, did whatever they wanted (e.g. participate in building out the infrastructure, $2K+ per vehicle access fee, etc.)), GM EVs/PHEVs w/such compatibility would suddenly have MANY more places they could DC FC at. Same goes if they picked CHAdeMO.

Hell, BMW made CHAdeMO standard on Japanese i3's (http://news.bmw.co.jp/press/2013/11/13a.html and http://insideevs.com/bmw-i3-gets-chademo-charged-japan/) even though they're a supporter of SAE Combo (Combo1 as an option on North American i3s, Combo2 on European i3's). Seems like they were forced to do CHAdeMO in Japan since at time of i3 launch there were almost 2000 CHAdeMO DC FCs in Japan but 0 SAE Combo DC FCs there. It would be pretty darn silly and uncompetitive to ship the i3 there either w/no DC FC capability or with Combo1 or Combo2, for which there are no DC FCs there.

As for "Why is Spark EV sales so poor?", I'm not sure it having optional Combo1 instead of the other 2 standards is the only nor the primary reason, but it sure doesn't help due to the skimpy compatible infrastructure.

If GM adopted Tesla's standard and inlet, they could theoretically charge at Superchargers AND CHAdeMO DC FCs via http://shop.teslamotors.com/collections/model-s/products/chademo-adapter (whenever the heck this ships in the US).

 

[Nashco]

...will be stuck in city centers, where they will go unnoticed and unused...

Just to clarify, you realize there are a lot of cities that are between other cities, and stores/restaurants that are not inside the center of major cities, right? Did you read what I posted about the significant increase in installation cost to add fast chargers to rest areas? Seems like you're just saying your opinion in response to my post, but didn't actually read my post closely.

There aren't many places (even in the US) where you can drive a long distance (especially 200 miles) without driving past a city. Even small cities are cities, and have a heck of a lot more appealling things to do than getting a cup of coffee from a vending machine and using a trucker bathroom. If you had the option to get a coffee from a local coffee shop with wifi and heat/AC, wouldn't you prefer that to sitting on the side of the highway? I'm not just spouting theory...I've done both in my fast charging experiences, and I greatly prefer supporting local businesses to sitting in a cold car on the side of the highway!

You also make the assumption that everybody using an electric car to commute has easy access to L1/L2 charging. Many city dwellers don't have a dedicated parking spot at home (street parking, garage parking without access to power, etc.), so workplace charging and fast charging do enable even those with limited/no charging at home to confidently drive an EV. Heck, I have a great parking space with L2 charging at home, but due to a storm we had a power outage last night. No worries...my wife and I could both swing to our local (inner city) fast charger which has a chademo plug for her car and an SAE combo plug for mine! If I had to drive 30 miles outside of town to use a fast charger, that would have been a deal breaker since I only had 20 miles remaining range.

I would never say that there are too many fast charging stations, so by all means cover the map with them. We're certainly trying our best in the Pacific Northwest. However, given the choice of putting fast chargers at business locations that have easy access to high power lines and offer services to those charging...OR rest areas (which don't have any of that), I'll take stopping at a business every time.

With all of that said, none of this has anything to do with poor Spark EV sales.

Bryce

 

[buickanddeere]

Nashco dude. You have to get a standby generator and a transfer switch for you family and property. Power outages are getting worse on the aging utility infrastructure. Storms, unexpected equipment failure, indirect damage from fire or traffic wrecks for example. Nothing worse than flooded basements, thawed icecream and meat or frozen water pipes.
Simplest, economical in cost, reliable and portable if need be is a http://www.generlink.com/about_generlink.cfm and a http://www.championpowerequipment.com/generators/41537/

 

[TonyWilliams]

Nashco dude. You have to get a standby generator and a transfer switch for you family and property. Power outages are getting worse on the aging utility infrastructure. Storms, unexpected equipment failure, indirect damage from fire or traffic wrecks for example. Nothing worse than flooded basements, thawed icecream and meat or frozen water pipes.
Simplest, economical in cost, reliable and portable if need be is a http://www.generlink.com/about_generlink.cfm and a http://www.championpowerequipment.com/generators/41537/

If we had an earthquake, I'm not confident that we would have either gasoline or natural gas access. So, my solar system will charge up all of our EV's and the Solar City / Tesla battery storage during the day, and at night and during cloudy days, there is plenty of power for daily home use (without air conditioning) and limited driving.

Of course, there's nothing wrong with having a fossil fuel generator, too.

 

[buickanddeere]

I keep 25 gallons of gasoline and 15 gallons of diesel in a flammable storage cabinet locked in my shed. That would be enough to live comfortable until the roads were cleared after a natural disaster. And be enough fuel to drive out of the stricken area to place with services before carrying on farther.
I could not imagine living in a "target zone" for disaster on a fault line along the west coast or on top of a pending super volcano in Yellowstone national park.
It's not a matter if you get whacked but when.

 

[nozferatu]

If Tesla can do it, so can GM.

It's not the standard that's the problem...but people keep blaming it on that. That's just a smoke screen and feeds the trolls.

If you're referring to GM building out Combo1 DC FC infrastructure, yeah... they can, but are they doing it now? Will they? And why would they? What's the business justification for them given the puny number of vehicles they sell that even have DC FC capability?

The standard has plenty to do with it. If they adopted Tesla's Supercharger standard (and paid Tesla for it, did whatever they wanted (e.g. participate in building out the infrastructure, $2K+ per vehicle access fee, etc.)), GM EVs/PHEVs w/such compatibility would suddenly have MANY more places they could DC FC at. Same goes if they picked CHAdeMO.

Hell, BMW made CHAdeMO standard on Japanese i3's (http://news.bmw.co.jp/press/2013/11/13a.html and http://insideevs.com/bmw-i3-gets-chademo-charged-japan/) even though they're a supporter of SAE Combo (Combo1 as an option on North American i3s, Combo2 on European i3's). Seems like they were forced to do CHAdeMO in Japan since at time of i3 launch there were almost 2000 CHAdeMO DC FCs in Japan but 0 SAE Combo DC FCs there. It would be pretty darn silly and uncompetitive to ship the i3 there either w/no DC FC capability or with Combo1 or Combo2, for which there are no DC FCs there.

As for "Why is Spark EV sales so poor?", I'm not sure it having optional Combo1 instead of the other 2 standards is the only nor the primary reason, but it sure doesn't help due to the skimpy compatible infrastructure.

If GM adopted Tesla's standard and inlet, they could theoretically charge at Superchargers AND CHAdeMO DC FCs via http://shop.teslamotors.com/collections/model-s/products/chademo-adapter (whenever the heck this ships in the US).

The standard has nothing to do with it. Tesla made its own standard. And it's working just fine. The company just isn't that interested in perpetuating electric vehicles and isn't committed to the product as a whole.

You're confusing the company's decision making with a standard. No surprise there. No matter what standard one chooses or chose...initially those costs were high and any company would be fitting the bill for it. So cost isn't a reason either as that is fixed for any choice.

 

[buickanddeere]

The rumoured Sonic EV with more range and interior room may convince some people to "quit sitting on the fence" and go EV. The Spark EV does look like and feel like an electric go-kart beside other highway traffic.

 

[TonyWilliams]

The rumoured Sonic EV with more range and interior room may convince some people to go EV. The Spark EV does look like and feel like an electric go-kart beside other highway traffic.

Well, one thing that GM will get out of a Sonic "200" mile car will be 4 CARB-ZEV credits instead of 3. Not a real good reason to build it over the 50-ish per month Spark EV.

But, they may be worried about 2018 compliance when it will be REQUIRED to sell the car outside of just Oregon and California (see NOTE 1). I suspect this means that:

1) they don't or won't have a hydrogen car ready for model year 2018 sales, like their pals at Honda, Toyota, Hyundai, etc, will have.

2) they don't foresee a 90 mile tiny car selling well in the CARB-ZEV states. I suppose the Sonic has more palatable and will be easier to sell in Connecticut in the winter, particularly with "200" mile range (this will likely be 150 real miles, with even less in the winter).

Anyhoo, it will be interesting to see it all transpire with Tesla Model 3 coming out in the same time period.


NOTE 1: CARB-ZEV state coalition - California, New York, Massachusetts, Oregon, Vermont, Maryland, Connecticut and Rhode Island. Maine and New Jersey are participating with ZEV initiatives, but are not signatory CARB-ZEV states.

The eight states combined account for 23% of U.S. vehicle sales, according to California’s Air Resources, and all ten states make up 28%.

 

[cwerdna]

The standard has nothing to do with it. Tesla made its own standard. And it's working just fine. The company just isn't that interested in perpetuating electric vehicles and isn't committed to the product as a whole.

It works fine for Tesla because they put a LOT of wood behind their arrow and are dead serious about EVs and dead serious about DC FCing them, as evidenced by their infrastructure build out and MANY other actions.

Yep, your latter statement is correct about GM.

You're confusing the company's decision making with a standard. No surprise there. No matter what standard one chooses or chose...initially those costs were high and any company would be fitting the bill for it. So cost isn't a reason either as that is fixed for any choice.

No, I'm not. GM is a backer of SAE Combo and as we've discussed ad nauseam, pulled political shenanigans in this area. If GM, the company decided to use other standards such as CHAdeMO or Tesla Supercharger, they'd suddenly have access to WAY more existing infrastructure.

If they chose CHAdeMO, they wouldn't necessarily have to contribute anything to build out its infrastructure (but it seems GM hasn't contributed anything in monetary or hardware form to build out Combo1 either). BMW sells the i3 in Japan w/CHAdeMO standard. It only went on sale recently. They were almost 2K CHAdeMO stations there when it became available. Did BMW contribute to build the infrastructure there? I dunno, but those almost 2K stations were there already.

Mitsubishi sells the i3 in the US. I only know of one CHAdeMO station of theirs in the US, at their corporate office in So Cal.

Again, GM, the company deciding to contribute nothing to building out Combo1 standard infrastructure is also a company decision.

 

[nozferatu]

It works fine for Tesla because they put a LOT of wood behind their arrow and are dead serious about EVs and dead serious about DC FCing them, as evidenced by their infrastructure build out and MANY other actions.

Yep, your latter statement is correct about GM.

Yes most are aware of that but your incessant repetitive focus on GM alone is moot.

No, I'm not. GM is a backer of SAE Combo and as we've discussed ad nauseam, pulled political shenanigans in this area. If GM, the company decided to use other standards such as CHAdeMO or Tesla Supercharger, they'd suddenly have access to WAY more existing infrastructure.

If they chose CHAdeMO, they wouldn't necessarily have to contribute anything to build out its infrastructure (but it seems GM hasn't contributed anything in monetary or hardware form to build out Combo1 either). BMW sells the i3 in Japan w/CHAdeMO standard. It only went on sale recently. They were almost 2K CHAdeMO stations there when it became available. Did BMW contribute to build the infrastructure there? I dunno, but those almost 2K stations were there already.

Mitsubishi sells the i3 in the US. I only know of one CHAdeMO station of theirs in the US, at their corporate office in So Cal.

Again, GM, the company deciding to contribute nothing to building out Combo1 standard infrastructure is also a company decision

No I think you are. CHAdeMO was backed by a huge power supplier in Japan. If it wasn't pushed by them I doubt it'd have gained any more traction than any other standard. That's what you don't seem to understand. The sales of CHAdeMO equipped vehicles has nothing to do with how good the standard is. Nissan had a hand in CHAdeMO because of the support it received from the power supplier.

Which goes back to my point.