Leased a Spark EV with the SAE Combo charging port on 6 Jan
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TTG (and others):
Understand wanting to keep this thread for Spark EV charging only, after all, this is the Spark EV Forum. However, the issues raised by this thread go to the heart of the matter with GM and its committmment to EV's in general. Tony has a wealth of EV experience, and his comments should be taken in the context of one knowledgable man giving sound advice to others. I drive a Mitsubishi I-Miev, we don't even have the Spark EV in PA. Wish we did, as I think this is a much better car than the Mitsubishi. However, now that QC stations are popping up in this area, drivers of the MIEV who have QC can take advantage of them. Unfortunately, my car has no QC option. But at least I did not pay extra for a feature that really cannot be used. That's what Tony has been stressing, that people were not told the truth, that the SAE standard is only available in VERY limited amount. Very few drivers will be able to QC their Spark EV. Chevy, though, is not telling people this; as he pointed out, at San Diego aiuto show, he had to correct the GM people. The Spark EV appears to be a great little car, certainly as big as my MiEV, with much better battery and range. If it fits into your lifestyle and you can do fine without the QC option, great. But be aware of what you really can get and what is simply being sold to you. In addition, it is frustrating to see such a nice little car being made and yet GM sabotages it by not making a viable QC option.
Lou
Understand wanting to keep this thread for Spark EV charging only, after all, this is the Spark EV Forum. However, the issues raised by this thread go to the heart of the matter with GM and its committmment to EV's in general. Tony has a wealth of EV experience, and his comments should be taken in the context of one knowledgable man giving sound advice to others. I drive a Mitsubishi I-Miev, we don't even have the Spark EV in PA. Wish we did, as I think this is a much better car than the Mitsubishi. However, now that QC stations are popping up in this area, drivers of the MIEV who have QC can take advantage of them. Unfortunately, my car has no QC option. But at least I did not pay extra for a feature that really cannot be used. That's what Tony has been stressing, that people were not told the truth, that the SAE standard is only available in VERY limited amount. Very few drivers will be able to QC their Spark EV. Chevy, though, is not telling people this; as he pointed out, at San Diego aiuto show, he had to correct the GM people. The Spark EV appears to be a great little car, certainly as big as my MiEV, with much better battery and range. If it fits into your lifestyle and you can do fine without the QC option, great. But be aware of what you really can get and what is simply being sold to you. In addition, it is frustrating to see such a nice little car being made and yet GM sabotages it by not making a viable QC option.
Lou
cwerdna
Well-known member
Re: QC'ing, it depends on what standard you're talking about. Rather than me rehash all the arguments and details, please read posts by TonyWilliams and myself in these threads, starting w/these posts:nozferatu said:
http://www.mychevysparkev.com/forum/viewtopic.php?p=4655#p4655
http://www.mychevysparkev.com/forum/viewtopic.php?p=4866#p4866
Also, the posts by both of us earlier in this thread may help paint a more realistic picture.
http://www.mychevysparkev.com/forum/viewtopic.php?p=4975#p4975 has a list of Frankenplug (CCS) players.
http://www.mychevysparkev.com/forum/viewtopic.php?p=5408#p5408 has a CHAdeMO update.
For gatedad, unfortunately, the Spark EV isn't even sold there, so if they added J1772 CCS stations, the only car that could use them would be the BMW i3 (coming in 2Q 2014).
The Frankenplug players have some golden opportunities to add their standard of DC FCs in areas where there's little or NO CHAdeMO infrastructure. But, they've got to sell/lease their Frankenplug cars their as well... Spark EV? For the US, doesn't seem like GM's planning on going beyond CA and OR (again, since the Spark EV is not much beyond a CA ZEV compliance car.)
BMW i3? We'll see. They're pretty serious about EVs (#3 after Tesla and Nissan), but their behavior is sometimes an enigma.
cwerdna said:
Well...neither post really answers the question. But I personally feel that the QC options will be available far sooner than most people think it will be. If they are not, then EV's...as a whole...are a novelty for the future more than anything else. QC options are perhaps the number one way to promote the future of EVs for the masses. If that isn't taken advantage of or promoted by the industry and cities as a whole, then buying an EV may not be such a great idea...don't know.
cwerdna
Well-known member
I guess you didn't read the details.nozferatu said:
There already is pretty decent QC infrastructure (but only for the Tesla Model S and future Tesla EVs): http://www.teslamotors.com/supercharger. It enabled 2 Model S to make it from So Cal to NY ONLY on those Superchargers (http://www.teslamotors.com/enthusiasts/blogs/archive/2014), which are free of charge to Model S cars that have Supercharger access (60 kWh model + $2K or 85 kWh model).
From http://www.chademo.com/, there are 3533 CHAdeMO DC FCs, 554 of them in the US.
There's a 3rd standard, CCS (SAE J1772 CCS while Europe is using an incompatible version w/Mennekes plug for the upper portion instead of J1772). http://www.teslamotorsclub.com/showthread.php/12357-SAE-vs-CHAdeMO/page33?p=511681&viewfull=1#post511681 has a picture of the 2 incompatible types (see Combo and Combo 1). http://www.teslamotorsclub.com/showthread.php/12357-SAE-vs-CHAdeMO/page36?p=533435&viewfull=1#post533435 has a closeup
Please re-read http://www.mychevysparkev.com/forum/viewtopic.php?p=4975#p4975 along w/the posts I've suggested you read (not just the 1st post the link leads to, read ALL the posts by myself and TonyWilliams there). Then, judge for yourself which of them have serious EV programs (w/DC FC capability) in the US and which will get their standard deployed (e.g. plunking down the $ for the infrastructure, legislating/mandating it, etc.)
I prefer to go by facts, rather than by feelings.
cwerdna said:
Yes but again...you keep talking about cars that are of no concern to Spark EV buyers/owners. What Tesla does for their uber rich clientele has no bearing on me. And the Japanese standard you call CHAdeMO won't work with the Spark EV will it? So how does that have any bearing the DC Fast Charging option now on the Spark EV?
You need to keep in mind...and I've said this before I think...that the average person needs to clearly understand the options in layman's terms. If you guys really want EVs to take off and be mainstream...which I hope they do become mainstream..then you have to cater to the masses...not specialized buyers who are too focused on the details. That's the reality of it.
Rather than going through a multitude of posts that have all sorts of acronyms which are both extremely confusing and cumbersome to understand and remember, can't anyone here break it down into plain English and offer opinions on the matter or is that asking for too much? From my perspective, I'm just seeing names and numbers that are like what marketing people throw out there without explaining what it really is.
cwerdna
Well-known member
Sigh...nozferatu said:
Here we go again, there are 3 INCOMPATIBLE DC fast charging standards in the US:
Tesla Supercharger - growing fast, over 25K compatible vehicles deployed, map of current and future expansion at http://www.teslamotors.com/supercharger. It's BLAZING fast and MUCH faster than even CHAdeMO.
CHAdeMO - http://www.chademo.com/ - backed by the players at http://www.tepco.co.jp/en/press/corp-com/release/10031501-e.html (yes, that TEPCO == Fukushima nuclear power plant TEPCO). Growing fast. Used by the world's best selling EV, the Leaf. Used also by the i-MiEV (doing very poorly in the US but ok in parts of Europe). Soon there will be this adapter to enable the Model S to use CHAdeMO DC FCs: http://shop.teslamotors.com/collections/model-s/products/chademo-adapter.
J1772 CCS - from http://www.mynissanleaf.com/viewtopic.php?p=183351#p183351 posted in March 2012
It seems their only goal of creating the above standard was to slow down Nissan, which uses CHAdeMO.walterbays said:
http://www.mychevysparkev.com/forum/viewtopic.php?p=4975#p4975 outlines who the backers are of CCS (J1772 CCS and Mennekes CCS). Now, ask yourself again, how many of those are serious DC fast charging EVs in the US (w/shipping products or shipping soon) and how many of them sell in the US at all?
Right now, there is 1 compatible vehicle w/the above: the Spark EV and most of the units on the road aren't compatible with it since it wasn't even available w/DC FC port until very recently. And, the Spark EV isn't even moving 100 units/month and is only sold in 2 states! The Leaf moves about 1K units/month and is the world's best selling EV w/over 100K units shipped worldwide.
The next one on the horizon in the BMW i3 but BMW doesn't sell many vehicles in the US. Please see my other posts on that, as I don't have time to rehash it.
You can use my hints at http://www.mychevysparkev.com/forum/viewtopic.php?p=4870#p4870 to predict how many i3s BMW will sell in the US and compare that to Leaf or Model S numbers, for instance.
Do you understand what I'm getting at? Tesla has Supercharger and is VERY serious about EVs. Nissan has CHAdeMO is very serious about EVs.
Frankenplug (J1772 CCS) players in the US? BMW is pretty serious and is the wildcard, but they won't be selling many i3s it seems (http://insideevs.com/bmw-ceo-us-i3-sales-to-be-a-couple-thousand-in-2014/ and run projections yourself). GM? Not at all serious.
DC FCs don't come for free out of the sky. They cost 10s of $1,000s of dollars to install, so who do you think is going to pony up for this? You think GM is going to when can't even sell 100 Spark EVs a month? BMW? Dunno. They're the wildcard.
edit: fixed 25K reference for Superchargers
cwerdna said:
Sigh indeed mate...if you knew how frustrating it is reading your posts and your persistent assuming that everyone knows what you know, you'd realize how many times I've sighed. I appreciate your post above but I must say that you do a good job of pushing people away from this subject. Not good.
The average person coming into this forum who wants to know more about the Spark EV and the charging issues would leave with haste purely out of frustration...luckily I've not reached that point yet.
The question arises...why would anyone purchase a Volt or Spark EV if the charging infrastructure is so poor (i.e. nothing better than a 240V system to charge with)? You paint a very bleak picture for the GM products as far as I can tell.
I forgot to add, Tesla means little to me...it's not affordable for most and is a toy for the rich as far as I'm concerned. They can make the fastest most powerful chargers out there but I doubt very much any manufacturer that makes an EV affordable enough for the masses will adopt Tesla's charging methods. So their numbers can be thrown out as far as I'm concerned.
cwerdna
Well-known member
Sigh... if I have some time later in the next week or two, I can try to talk to you over the phone about this. Today is not a good day. I've already expended far too much time replying to your posts.
I'd probably want to have an open chat window w/you somewhere to send you URLs to look at, while on the phone, to show you the same numbers I'd be looking at.
As for the Spark EV.... well, yeah, that's kinda my point, for the time being, if one needs/cares about DC fast charging. If you want a car DC FC infrastructure in working order beyond single digits NOW, the Spark EV isn't it.
But then again, Supercharger deployment coverage isn't national and CHAdeMO deployment is very spotty w/many areas having none in that format either.
I'd probably want to have an open chat window w/you somewhere to send you URLs to look at, while on the phone, to show you the same numbers I'd be looking at.
The Volt CANNOT be DC fast charged at all! It doesn't have ANY compatibility to J1772 CCS. And, in fact, it only has a 3.3 kW on-board charger for L1 and L2 J1772 AC charging. Heck, w/the inlet that's on the Volt now, there's not even enough room for the 2 extra pins. See picture at http://www.teslamotorsclub.com/showthread.php/12357-SAE-vs-CHAdeMO/page10?p=325919&viewfull=1#post325919.nozferatu said:
As for the Spark EV.... well, yeah, that's kinda my point, for the time being, if one needs/cares about DC fast charging. If you want a car DC FC infrastructure in working order beyond single digits NOW, the Spark EV isn't it.
But then again, Supercharger deployment coverage isn't national and CHAdeMO deployment is very spotty w/many areas having none in that format either.
cwerdna said:
I would suggest you create a post and just make it a sticky for everyone here to be able to read...not just me. I'm sure it would be appreciated and extremely helpful to many people who want to learn more about this ridiculously convoluted and confusing charging issue.
I never said or suggested the Volt can be fast charged. You see you are jumping ahead again. But I get the rest of what you say.
Out of curiosity, if you can break down the charging rates for each standard that would be great too. But as suggested, putting it all in one big sticky thread would be most helpful to most people rather than just myself. I'm sure I'm not alone.
Good night.
cwerdna
Well-known member
Maybe I or Tony will, when we find the time. It's not as confusing as you think it is. It's quite simple.nozferatu said:
http://www.mychevysparkev.com/forum/viewtopic.php?p=4730#p4730nozferatu said:
However, the output of DC FCs can vary.
http://nissanqc.com/ (CHAdeMO) only has 44 kW output. I know Tony on MNL has alluded to 25 kW output CHAdeMO DC FCs that are $30K.
The ABB J1772 CCS DC FCs I witnessed and took pics of at CES (https://picasaweb.google.com/105684180251177299188/CES2014?authkey=Gv1sRgCIXR0p_PwbjOUA) only have 20 kW output. They were there to charge the BMW i3 test drive cars.
In thinking about your questions/apparent confusion more, I think you're asking the wrong questions. Perhaps we need to understand your use cases first to determine if the Spark EV (or any pure EV) would even bit the right fit for you.
Hopefully, we'll be able to talk on the phone and we can use Facetime or Skype (haven't tried video calling on iOS before) so that I can actually show you some things, to make things less abstract.
TonyWilliams
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nozferatu said:
Perhaps you aren't aware that there are TWO quick charge standards already deployed and growing fast in the USA, the Tesla Supercharger and CHAdeMO.
Nissan just installed Europe’s 1,000th quick charger in January 2014.
EVs compatible with CHAdeMO chargers include:
Nissan LEAF
Nissan e-NV200 (comming 2014)
Citroen C-Zero
Mitsubishi i-MiEV
Mitsubishi Outlander PHEV
Peugeot iON
Kia Soul EV (coming 2014)
ZERO motorcycles
CHAdeMO and Tesla Superchargers December 2013
If you had a map with five dots on it, that would be the GM and German auto manufacturer's Frankenplug standard. By the way, each of the red dots that are Tesla Superchargers typical have 4 to 6 charging stalls per station.
TonyWilliams
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nozferatu said:
GM, like many, many other companies, is not serious about pure electric vehicles. They only build the Spark EV because they are required to by government regulations.
So, they build it in the absolute minimum volume.
Hope that clearly answers your question.
TonyWilliams
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nozferatu said:
USA Quick Charge data:
1. SAE CCS "Frankenplug" - approximately 5 in the USA
up to 100kW eventually, probably limited to 62.5kW
EVs compatible with Frankenplug include:
*GM Spark EV - less than 100 with Frankenplug capability
*BMW i3 (coming 2014)
*VW eGolf (coming 2014)
2. CHAdeMO - 3500 worldwide, 550 in the USA
up to 100kW eventually, currently limited to 62.5kW
EVs compatible with CHAdeMO include:
*Nissan LEAF - over 45,000 in the USA and over 100,000 worldwide
*Nissan e-NV200 (coming 2014)
*Citroen C-Zero - not sold in USA
*Mitsubishi i-MiEV - over 30,000 worldwide with its variants C-Zero & iON
*Mitsubishi Outlander PHEV (coming 2015)
*Peugeot iON - not sold in USA
*Kia Soul EV (coming 2014)
*ZERO motorcycles
*Tesla except Roadster with adaptor
3. Supercharger - 73 stations in the USA, each with 4-8 stalls
up to 150kW eventually, currently limited to 120kW
EVs compatible with Supercharger include:
*Tesla only except Roadster
gra
Well-known member
They are serious about pure electric vehicles, they just have their doubts about the mass-market viability of current BEVs and believe FCEVs have more potential. That being said, here's what the gearheads at Car & Driver, who are about as far from being EV enthusiasts as it's possible to be,* had to say about the Spark when they tested it in this month's issue against the five other available sub-$40k BEVs (Fit EV, 500e, Focus Electric, LEAF, Smart ED):TonyWilliams said:
"Here's a car that puts it all together. It's a total effort, a studied application of brain power and enthusiasm that embraces the electric mandate with gusto and without a whiff of the government-made-us reluctance. And this from none other than GM, the company that sued California over the EV mandate; that forever bears the mark of Cain for killing off its own pioneering electric, the EV1." The article continues on in that vein, with the only real complaints being the one we all agree about, the slow On-Board Charger, and also the lack of in-dash nav other than by using a smartphone. Not bad for a company that "isn't serious about pure electric vehicles." Here's the way they ranked them, remembering that they put a higher weight on performance, handling and driving qualities than Joe/Josephine Commuter:
6. Smart ED Cabriolet
5. Fiat 500e
4. LEAF SL
3. Fit EV
2. Ford Focus Electric
1. Spark EV (2LT)
*The article's first paragraph reads "The makers of the cars you see here were dragged kicking, screaming and, in some cases, litigating into eligibility for this test. If truth were ever told, then these automakers would undoubtedly say that they'd rather not be here at all, thank you very much; that all of their accumulated business acumen and experience rages against the absurdity of a $37,000 Ford Focus with a 64 mile driving range" [Note: C&D range achieved on test].
TonyWilliams
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gra said:
Yes, I don't include hydrogen cars with pure EV's with stored onboard and autonomous electrical power.
cwerdna
Well-known member
Those other cars, standards and players ARE of concern to Spark EV buyers/owners. See some figures at http://www.mychevysparkev.com/forum/viewtopic.php?p=5578#p5578.nozferatu said:
There has to be a business justification for an automaker or anyone else ponying up money for installing DC fast chargers that cost tens of thousands of dollars. If an automaker isn't serious about EVs (e.g. GM) and likely isn't selling in volumes to even breakeven, why would they pony up $ to install these DC FCs and lose even more $?
If you were to pitch to government and businesses spend $ to install DC FCs, esp. if trying to collect $ to recoup costs, I bet someone will ask questions like these: How many of cars are there using this standard in this region? Are there any other standards? What's their installed base of vehicles? What are the trends of the respective groups? If we're shooting for ROI (return on investment), which standard will get us there fastest? Or, if I had to choose and install just 1 standard, which would have the greatest benefit? The group for which there are almost no compatible vehicles or the other one w/over 45K vehicles in the US?
And, if enough potential EV buyers are educated on the DC FC standards and feels they actually need DC FC or really want it, they'll hopefully look around and see the infrastructure for each and vote w/their wallet for the most logical choice, which again leaves an odd man out.
gra said:
It's also possible GM is serious about maintaining their sales of ridiculous gas-guzzlers by virtue of meeting these silly zero emission and White House mileage requirements and mandates put in by certain states. They'll do anything to keep the sale of the regular wasteful cars going...at any price. Developing an EV from a cheap platform is a drop in the bucket cost wise compared to the gravy train they have elsewhere. That goes for all manufacturers frankly. The FIAT500E is a token car too.
gra
Well-known member
Autonomous? How do you figure that? The batteries certainly aren't being charged by on-board systems (other than a limited amount of regen). Tony, other than a hypothetical BEV covered with solar panels and taking a week or so to charge, there aren't any 'pure EVs with stored on-board and autonomous electrical power'. The only difference between a BEV and FCEV is how the energy which will make electricity is stored, because both of them access that electricity via a chemical reaction. I just don't get how technically-minded individuals such as yourself can keep saying that FCEVs aren't 'pure EVs', and some even go so far as to claim that FCEVs aren't EVs at all.TonyWilliams said: