Battery degredation

[SparkevBlogspot]

Temperature in my area (San Diego, 40 miles from the beach) hit 118F a week ago on a week day. If SparkEV was sitting under hot sun, fully charged but not plugged in (ie, nagging by coworkers who complain of fully charged EV still plugged in), the battery will degrade quicker. As such, generalizing the battery capacity for an individual SparkEV (or any EV) is difficult.

As a datapoint, mine shows 16.8 kWh to 17.1 kWh after 3.25 years, 31K miles, hundreds of DCFC many in hot weather. But it has not been fully charged often and rarely left under hot sun over 90F without plugged in. When it had to be parked over 90F and unable to plug in, it was never over 50% charged.

 

[MrDRMorgan]

Hope that works, if not just paste in browser to see page. It is comparing volt lg chem battery with spark a123 battery and shows usable for a123 pack as being 17.3kwh and 81% depth of discharge. Grain of salt needed as I have no idea where that info came from. https://gm-volt.com/wp-content/uploads/2013/08/Slide5.jpg

As a side note, I come across an lg chem website and took a shot at emailing them on the 15-16 spark packs usable capacity. Doubt I will get a reply, but am hoping I do. Curious where the 15-16 DoD sits at as well as the usable capacity since 15-16 are said to be more efficient than the 14 models motor/regen setup. However if usable kwh is similar to the 14's then I have to doubt there's much of a difference with range rating being the same.

Hopefully get an answer to maybe help unravel some of these spec mysteries we have with our little sparks. I know many of our spark ev owners may not care, but things like this are good to know with the ev revolution beginning to take a strong stance in future automotive transportation and learning all we can will certainly drive our future purchase decisions.

The published Chevrolet Product Information for the 2014 Spark EV with A123 Systems HV battery specifies the HV battery capacity at 21 kWh. The same document for the 2015 and 2016 Spark EVs with the LG HV battery specifies the HV battery capacity at 19 kWh. How much of each specified capacity is usable is not defined.

 

[TheLondonBroiler]

As a side note, I come across an lg chem website and took a shot at emailing them on the 15-16 spark packs usable capacity. Doubt I will get a reply

I have a feeling that GM set the usable capacity of the pack, based somehow on LG's specifications.

Torque Pro reports my battery capacity at 15.2. It was 15.4 when I uploaded the pids and started using it with the Spark a month ago. It then fell to 15.3 two days after my epic 560 mile trip, and has fallen again. I'll have had Sparky 6 months in 5 days, and I've put ~12,000 miles on it (odo ~28,500 miles). Via the efficiency screen, it was showing 16-16.5 kwh capacity when I received it in January. I'll post any changes.

 

[MrDRMorgan]

As a side note, I come across an lg chem website and took a shot at emailing them on the 15-16 spark packs usable capacity. Doubt I will get a reply

I have a feeling that GM set the usable capacity of the pack, based somehow on LG's specifications.

Torque Pro reports my battery capacity at 15.2. It was 15.4 when I uploaded the pids and started using it with the Spark a month ago. It then fell to 15.3 two days after my epic 560 mile trip, and has fallen again. I'll have had Sparky 6 months in 5 days, and I've put ~12,000 miles on it (odo ~28,500 miles). Via the efficiency screen, it was showing 16-16.5 kwh capacity when I received it in January. I'll post any changes.

Starting in June 2015, I leased a new 2015 Spark EV 2LT with DCFC. Shortly thereafter, I started calculating the car's battery capacity by using the information on the Energy Screen. In July 2015 I was averaging about 18.5 kWh. In December 2017, with about 25k miles on the ODO, my average had dropped to 17.0 to 17.5 kWh. Then, in December, the check engine light came on and my average dropped to around 15.5 kWh. The dealer replaced a module in the charging circuit but it did not help restore my battery capacity. Fast forward to early this month. A friend asked me to measure the battery capacity in his 2015 Spark EV 2LT which had about 30k miles on the ODO. Using TorquePro, I measured his battery capacity at 14.8 kWh.

I know I am reaching here, but it looks to me that there may be something going on with the HV battery in 2015 Spark EVs with 25k to 30k miles on the ODO. Hopefully, other drivers of 2015 Spark EVs will see this post and add their experiences so we get a better picture.

 

[CSW]

I have a 2015 spark with 31K on the odo.
Just today I used 98% of the battery and it said it was 14.2kwh per the energy screen of the car......
So this means the car has 14.5kwh usable?!
Terrible.

The usage totals were driving 51%, climate setting 42%, and batt conditioning 5%.
It was a hot day out (95-100 degrees) driving around mixed freeway and surface streets.

As a side note, I also have a 2016 spark with 22k miles on it and I used 98% a couple days ago with more freeway driving
and it said I had 17kwh usable...... (also a very hot day)

So the 2015 being 1 year older and 10k more miles lost 2.5kwh of capacity over the 2016??
Again, terrible.

If this keeps up, GM will have to warranty the battery ..... but I imagine that would be a total battle.

 

[MrDRMorgan]

I am trying to figure out if the battery conditioning function in my 2014 Spark EV is working or not. Has anyone with a 2014 Spark EV noticed any value other than zero for battery conditioning on the Energy Information screen? I have data for well over 100 charging sessions over the last 3 years and not one session has ever shown anything other than zero; even in the hot summer months here in Central California. However, both my 2015 and 2016 Spark EVs have multiple times shown active battery conditioning in the same hot summer weather. I know the HV battery in the 2014 has a different heatsink than the HV battery used in the 2015 and 2016.

I have set up TorquePro to measure both the speed of the battery conditioning coolant pump and the HV battery temperature. I tried this out on my 2016 Spark EV and it worked great.

 

[NORTON]

.... Has anyone with a 2014 Spark EV noticed any value other than zero for battery conditioning on the Energy Information screen? ...

I have definitely seen numbers displayed, for both hot and cold conditions.
Once on a really cold day after leaving it unplugged in the PM after a full charge in the AM I drove about 5 miles on my commute home and saw %5 BC and 15% Driving and Acc. But then that BC number did not increase after that.
After that I started leaving it plugged in all day in extreme temps.

A recent HOT weather round trip commute, after sitting unplugged overnight at home on a warm night, I saw at the work charge spot before shutdown: 80% D&A, 18% Climate, 1% BC.

Also on my ChargePoint acct if I leave it plugged in all day I'll see a few 15 minute blips of ~1kW of power being used for ~15 minutes every few hours.

 

[SparkyJ]

If this keeps up, GM will have to warranty the battery ....but I imagine that would be a total battle.

Hopefully anyone thinking they may be in the range of the warranty minimum might find a fair baseline to go off, from this thread. As was said not any one pack would have the exact capacity of another when new, but numbers help. Good info from all and will be keeping my spark for at least 2 1/2 more years and will update any change I see with capacity and the mileage at that time.

Side note, I am really curious how even the dealer could figure out if it is in the 60% range...seems to be a very grey area. Looks like from the data so far you would have to be down around 10kwh usable capacity to maybe have a claim. If 2015's do have some sort of degradation issue, hope they will just crap out sooner than later to make the process a bit smoother.

 

[MrDRMorgan]

.... Has anyone with a 2014 Spark EV noticed any value other than zero for battery conditioning on the Energy Information screen? ...

I have definitely seen numbers displayed, for both hot and cold conditions.
Once on a really cold day after leaving it unplugged in the PM after a full charge in the AM I drove about 5 miles on my commute home and saw %5 BC and 15% Driving and Acc. But then that BC number did not increase after that.
After that I started leaving it plugged in all day in extreme temps.

A recent HOT weather round trip commute, after sitting unplugged overnight at home on a warm night, I saw at the work charge spot before shutdown: 80% D&A, 18% Climate, 1% BC.

Also on my ChargePoint acct if I leave it plugged in all day I'll see a few 15 minute blips of ~1kW of power being used for ~15 minutes every few hours.

Using TorquePro, I did discover this morning that turning on the AC gave me a cooling pump RPM reading and I am sure, if I left the AC on long enough, the batt temp would start to drop. That kind of makes sense. I would expect the HV battery, like the cabin, will heat up on a hot day and need AC to cool down.

When you leave your Spark EV plugged in, do you leave it in the charge immediate mode? My thought is that the car must be in the charge immediate mode for the battery conditioning to work while plugged it. It may also require a 3.3 kWh L2 service to supply sufficient power.

3 years of driving an EV and I am still trying to learn what makes it tick.

 

[SparkyJ]

When you leave your Spark EV plugged in, do you leave it in the charge immediate mode? My thought is that the car must be in the charge immediate mode for the battery conditioning to work while plugged it. It may also require a 3.3 kWh L2 service to supply sufficient power.

3 years of driving an EV and I am still trying to learn what makes it tick.

I use my car monday through friday to commute and once I found out the tms doesn't seem to run with the car off and unplugged, I started keeping it plugged in to charge immediately. Also once daily high temps past the mid 80's I have kept it plugged in set to charge immediately. Winter I leave it about 50% charge over the weekend, but do the same thing as summer during the week. I know the rules to longer battery health, but just go by the owners manual and if bad practice then at least I kept in line with gm's intentions. And I do believe, even if not set to charge immediately, it will still use conditioning to keep the battery comfy, just says in manual to keep plugged in when sitting, so I will assume that conditioning is active either way. Even a 120v charger won't exceed the rated max output of 12 amps so charge time would just increase.

Btw seems tms runs a lot more now in the summer months. I use the 120v charger for my daily charging and have it plugged in to a kill-a-watt and my roughly 8-9 kw a day normally take 10 to 11 kwh for recharge are taking 14-15 kwh on these 100f+ days. Dropping my wall to wheels mpg to around 80-85mpge.

 

[SparkE]

If you want to leave it plugged in on very hot or very cold weather for battery conditioning, but don't want to fill the battery up to 100%, then use the 120V EVSE set to 8A. On hot days, after the air has cooled down to under 80, plug in the 240V EVSE for a few hours before going to bed (if you need quite a bit of a charge); or, plug in the 240V EVSE *first thing* in the morning when you get up in order to get a 'little bit extra range' (if your battery needs it).

I actually rarely left the car plugged in all night (it doesn't get really hot or really cold overnight in the SF bay area). I ould generally plug it in when I got home, unplug it before going to bed, and if the charge was less than 80-%, plug it in again when I got up in the morning (and then 'remote start' the car about 10 minutes before leaving, to get the battery ready for the drive if it was hot-ish or cold-ish outside).

 

[MrDRMorgan]

When you leave your Spark EV plugged in, do you leave it in the charge immediate mode? My thought is that the car must be in the charge immediate mode for the battery conditioning to work while plugged it. It may also require a 3.3 kWh L2 service to supply sufficient power.

3 years of driving an EV and I am still trying to learn what makes it tick.

I use my car monday through friday to commute and once I found out the tms doesn't seem to run with the car off and unplugged, I started keeping it plugged in to charge immediately. Also once daily high temps past the mid 80's I have kept it plugged in set to charge immediately. Winter I leave it about 50% charge over the weekend, but do the same thing as summer during the week. I know the rules to longer battery health, but just go by the owners manual and if bad practice then at least I kept in line with gm's intentions. And I do believe, even if not set to charge immediately, it will still use conditioning to keep the battery comfy, just says in manual to keep plugged in when sitting, so I will assume that conditioning is active either way. Even a 120v charger won't exceed the rated max output of 12 amps so charge time would just increase.

Btw seems tms runs a lot more now in the summer months. I use the 120v charger for my daily charging and have it plugged in to a kill-a-watt and my roughly 8-9 kw a day normally take 10 to 11 kwh for recharge are taking 14-15 kwh on these 100f+ days. Dropping my wall to wheels mpg to around 80-85mpge.

1. "I found out the tms doesn't seem to run with the car off and unplugged" - I agree and have seen the same thing.
2. "Also once daily high temps past the mid 80's I have kept it plugged in set to charge immediately" - charge immediately is the key. Nothing seems to happen with the tms when using delayed charging.
3. Using the L1 EVSE to charge the car AND run the tms does not work. Using L2 EVSE at 3.3 kWh does work. At the L1 12 amp setting, only about 1.4 kWh is available going into the car. There is insufficient power available to charge the battery and run the tms.

 

[MrDRMorgan]

If you want to leave it plugged in on very hot or very cold weather for battery conditioning, but don't want to fill the battery up to 100%, then use the 120V EVSE set to 8A. On hot days, after the air has cooled down to under 80, plug in the 240V EVSE for a few hours before going to bed (if you need quite a bit of a charge); or, plug in the 240V EVSE *first thing* in the morning when you get up in order to get a 'little bit extra range' (if your battery needs it).

I actually rarely left the car plugged in all night (it doesn't get really hot or really cold overnight in the SF bay area). I ould generally plug it in when I got home, unplug it before going to bed, and if the charge was less than 80-%, plug it in again when I got up in the morning (and then 'remote start' the car about 10 minutes before leaving, to get the battery ready for the drive if it was hot-ish or cold-ish outside).

I use the L1 EVSE set to 12 amps and delayed charging for my 2014 Spark EV. Twice in the morning of the last few days I found a "charging interruption" notice. I think the TMS and charging the car at the same time, coupled with the heat in the garage, were too much for the L1 EVSE. No problem with the L2 EVSE.

Right now I am of the following opinions - subject to change with further information:

1. With the car powered off and plugged in to 120 VAC [L1 EVSE - (1.4 kWh)] and charging set to immediate, TMS will not work.
2. With the car powered off but plugged into 240 VAC [L2 EVSE - (3.3 kWh)], and charging set to immediate, TMS will work.
3. With the car powered on, TMS will work regardless if it is plugged in or not.

 

[SparkyJ]

Tms will run on 120v, it's an "as needed" case depending on battery temp, not much heat is generated from 8a or 12a charging. When charging 240 or dcfc the tms will run since the cells will generate more heat with the faster charge. For the record, I haven't used 240v charging so can't be sure it runs 100% of the time charging, but might cycle as well depending on battery temp. DrMorgan once our heat wave is gone you'll be able to see.

 

[MrDRMorgan]

Tms will run on 120v, it's an "as needed" case depending on battery temp, not much heat is generated from 8a or 12a charging. When charging 240 or dcfc the tms will run since the cells will generate more heat with the faster charge. For the record, I haven't used 240v charging so can't be sure it runs 100% of the time charging, but might cycle as well depending on battery temp. DrMorgan once our heat wave is gone you'll be able to see.

I find it is difficult to understand what is actually going on with the battery conditioning function in my 2014 Spark EV; especially when I compare it to my 2016 Spark EV and my now returned 2015 Spark EV. For almost 3 years I have never seen a single % for battery conditioning in my 2014 Spark EV while the 2015 and 2016 both had many occurrences of battery conditioning. This has led me to question if the battery conditioning function is working properly or not in the 2014. Perhaps other drivers of a 2014 Spark EV can help answer my concern by sharing their experiences with their car's battery conditioning information.

About the best I can do at this point is continue to measure battery capacity and temperature and look for trends.

 

[CSW]

I had a 2014 for 3.2 years and never saw the battery conditioning used. I do see it, but rarely, on my 2015 and 2016.

 

[SparkyJ]

About the best I can do at this point is continue to measure battery capacity and temperature and look for trends.

I agree, still nice you can compare between the two battery types for fun if nothing else. A123 cells are said to be quite robust so wouldn't surprise me if tms cooling is set to run at much higher temps.

 

[CSW]

If you want to leave it plugged in on very hot or very cold weather for battery conditioning, but don't want to fill the battery up to 100%, then use the 120V EVSE set to 8A. On hot days, after the air has cooled down to under 80, plug in the 240V EVSE for a few hours before going to bed (if you need quite a bit of a charge); or, plug in the 240V EVSE *first thing* in the morning when you get up in order to get a 'little bit extra range' (if your battery needs it).

I actually rarely left the car plugged in all night (it doesn't get really hot or really cold overnight in the SF bay area). I ould generally plug it in when I got home, unplug it before going to bed, and if the charge was less than 80-%, plug it in again when I got up in the morning (and then 'remote start' the car about 10 minutes before leaving, to get the battery ready for the drive if it was hot-ish or cold-ish outside).

I use the L1 EVSE set to 12 amps and delayed charging for my 2014 Spark EV. Twice in the morning of the last few days I found a "charging interruption" notice. I think the TMS and charging the car at the same time, coupled with the heat in the garage, were too much for the L1 EVSE. No problem with the L2 EVSE.

Right now I am of the following opinions - subject to change with further information:

1. With the car powered off and plugged in to 120 VAC [L1 EVSE - (1.4 kWh)] and charging set to immediate, TMS will not work.
2. With the car powered off but plugged into 240 VAC [L2 EVSE - (3.3 kWh)], and charging set to immediate, TMS will work.
3. With the car powered on, TMS will work regardless if it is plugged in or not.

I have noticed the battery cooling working on my 2015 spark when it is plugged into the 120v set at 12amps on a hot day in my driveway..... it seems to be running at a "lesser level of cooling" than when it is plugged into the 240v charger tho I also have at my house..... like the fan and pumps are not running as robustly

 

[MrDRMorgan]

If you want to leave it plugged in on very hot or very cold weather for battery conditioning, but don't want to fill the battery up to 100%, then use the 120V EVSE set to 8A. On hot days, after the air has cooled down to under 80, plug in the 240V EVSE for a few hours before going to bed (if you need quite a bit of a charge); or, plug in the 240V EVSE *first thing* in the morning when you get up in order to get a 'little bit extra range' (if your battery needs it).

I actually rarely left the car plugged in all night (it doesn't get really hot or really cold overnight in the SF bay area). I ould generally plug it in when I got home, unplug it before going to bed, and if the charge was less than 80-%, plug it in again when I got up in the morning (and then 'remote start' the car about 10 minutes before leaving, to get the battery ready for the drive if it was hot-ish or cold-ish outside).

I use the L1 EVSE set to 12 amps and delayed charging for my 2014 Spark EV. Twice in the morning of the last few days I found a "charging interruption" notice. I think the TMS and charging the car at the same time, coupled with the heat in the garage, were too much for the L1 EVSE. No problem with the L2 EVSE.

Right now I am of the following opinions - subject to change with further information:

1. With the car powered off and plugged in to 120 VAC [L1 EVSE - (1.4 kWh)] and charging set to immediate, TMS will not work.
2. With the car powered off but plugged into 240 VAC [L2 EVSE - (3.3 kWh)], and charging set to immediate, TMS will work.
3. With the car powered on, TMS will work regardless if it is plugged in or not.

I have noticed the battery cooling working on my 2015 spark when it is plugged into the 120v set at 12amps on a hot day in my driveway..... it seems to be running at a "lesser level of cooling" than when it is plugged into the 240v charger tho I also have at my house..... like the fan and pumps are not running as robustly

Last night my garage was about 95 deg. F. Both the 2014 and 2016 were in the garage all night, AC had been turned off it both cars and neither was connected to power. This morning, when I powered up the 2016, the battery conditioning started right up. But, the 2014 did nothing when I powered it up. This leaves me wondering if the battery conditioning function in the 2014 is operating correctly. I have already established that the battery condition coolant pump activates when the AC in the 2014 is in use.

 

[NORTON]

.... This morning, when I powered up the 2016, the battery conditioning started right up. But, the 2014 did nothing when I powered it up. This leaves me wondering if the battery conditioning function in the 2014 is operating correctly. ....

This, and you saying the display never shows power used for battery conditioning, sounds like there is a problem...
Now what?