Battery degredation

[MrDRMorgan]

Thx guys,

This is exactly the same data in the CVS file...
I'll do more reading testing when I get my new to me Spark 2015 delivered later this week.
I tried to get as much data from battery as I could before negotiating oevr last weekend.
At least I got Cells Voltage and Avg Cells Voltage readout which was 4.1V all around so from my understanding the bat is healthy will see about it's capacity later.
The dash was showing 110+ km (70+ Miles) both times I test drive it.

I think you will really like the 2015 Spark EV or the 2014 or the 2016. I haven't had this much fun driving a little car since I purchased a 1966 VW Bug in 1966 and the Spark EV runs circles around the VW.

 

[TheLondonBroiler]

Just an update, I may have previously mentioned, using torque and the energy usage screen, my battery capacity has steadily gone down (only having gone up slightly on one occasion after a DEEP discharge and recharge), in the 10 months I've owned my Spark. It's logical to assume that frequent fast charging, LOTS of hard launching, and daily charging to 100%, have put greater strain on the battery than if the opposite were the case.

For the last month and a half, my primary means of charging the Spark has been dcfc ( due to personal circumstances that are... well... undesirable. I'll leave it at that). I've had what I would consider as a substantial drop in battery capacity (0.8kwh).

 

[fizzit]

I recently bought a 2015 with DCFC and 40k miles. The GOM range looked good when I bought it and the car was in good shape so I assumed the battery had to have a decent amount of life left. However the GOM range dropped quite a bit as soon as I started driving, and I recently downloaded the PIDs for Torque Pro to find that I have 14.4kWh capacity. Pretty disappointing, I'm guessing the previous owner must have used fast charging most of the time.

 

[TheGriffinSpark]

Wow...! I just posted a question about how accurate the capacity gauge is on Torque Pro, so this is news coming at a pretty crucial time for me. Now the question is, do I send the car back or tolerate the reduced capacity? Does anyone know what point GM will warranty a degraded battery (if at all)?

 

[MrDRMorgan]

Wow...! I just posted a question about how accurate the capacity gauge is on Torque Pro, so this is news coming at a pretty crucial time for me. Now the question is, do I send the car back or tolerate the reduced capacity? Does anyone know what point GM will warranty a degraded battery (if at all)?

The warranty on the HV battery is for 8 years / 100K miles and must have degraded by more than 35%.

My observations from postings on this forum as well as my own experiences is that the HV battery in the 2015 Spark EV appeared to be degrading more quickly than I expected. My leased 2015 Spark EV, along with that of a friend of mine who also had a leased 2015 Spark EV, showed the HV battery in the 2015 Spark EV degraded to around 15 kWh at about 30K miles on the ODO. Using Torque Pro and an OBDLink MX Bluetooth adapter, I measured the battery capacity in my friends 2015 Spark EV to be 14.8 kWh. My 2015 measured 15.2 kWh.

I currently have a 2014 Spark EV and a 2016 Spark EV and both have around 15k miles on the ODO. Since I started using TorquePro in June of 2018, my 2014 HV battery has degraded 0.5 kWh over the last 2000 miles [current capacity is 16.7 kWh] and my 2016 Spark EV HV battery has degraded by 0.3 kWh over tha last 4000 miles [current capacity is 16.4 kWh]. Some of this may be due to the drop in ambient temperature as winter approaches.

My 2014 Spark EV does not have the quick-charge option but my 2016 Spark EV does and I use DCFC when I not driving locally.

 

[MrDRMorgan]

I recently bought a 2015 with DCFC and 40k miles. The GOM range looked good when I bought it and the car was in good shape so I assumed the battery had to have a decent amount of life left. However the GOM range dropped quite a bit as soon as I started driving, and I recently downloaded the PIDs for Torque Pro to find that I have 14.4kWh capacity. Pretty disappointing, I'm guessing the previous owner must have used fast charging most of the time.

Many driving variables affect the calculated GOM value displayed on the dash display. My rule of thumb is to estimate my GOM range by multiplying the measured battery capacity by 5 mi / kWh. In your case it is 14.4 x 5 = 72 miles. This would be a rough estimate for driving at 65 mph. Use of the heater or AC can and will drop your GOM significantly depending on how you set your cabin temperature.

Comparing the TorquePro data between my 2014 Spark EV w/o DCFC and my 2016 Spark EV with DCFC shows little difference in the HV battery degradation rate and, when I am not driving locally or need to quickly charge for a local trip, I charge my 2016 Spark EV using DCFC.

 

[TheLondonBroiler]

do I send the car back or tolerate the reduced capacity?

I would have still bought the Spark knowing this, I love the car. If it were my only vehicle, for my particular situation (62 mile round trip commute, rural area), I would have looked at a PHEV (or more likely a BMW i3 REX). The Sparks power, efficiency, and price availability, is really unmatched.

I reiterate, I have to charge to 100% everyday when using 110/220v charging or I'm using fast charging, in order to do my commute. Additionally, I often do more than a dozen hard launches (+100kw on the gauge cluster) a day. I bought the Spark exactly 10 months ago today, and have put 19,850 miles on it (36,300 on the odo), almost 2,000 miles a month. The car would likely be significantly happier with an owner doing the opposite (while treating the car within the guidelines of the warranty, I'm pretty sure I'm a worst case scenario owner).

*IF* battery degradation keeps the same pace, the battery could be replaced under warranty in around 2 more years of my use. No-one REALLY knows what will happen, so I'm happy to drive it and find out.

I hope this has given some food for thought. The Spark, knowingly or unknowingly, makes an excellent ecological and economical choice, as a primary or secondary vehicle for many drivers, including myself.

 

[MrDRMorgan]

do I send the car back or tolerate the reduced capacity?

I would have still bought the Spark knowing this, I love the car. If it were my only vehicle, for my particular situation (62 mile round trip commute, rural area), I would have looked at a PHEV (or more likely a BMW i3 REX). The Sparks power, efficiency, and price availability, is really unmatched.

I reiterate, I have to charge to 100% everyday when using 110/220v charging or I'm using fast charging, in order to do my commute. Additionally, I often do more than a dozen hard launches (+100kw on the gauge cluster) a day. I bought the Spark exactly 10 months ago today, and have put 19,850 miles on it (36,300 on the odo), almost 2,000 miles a month. The car would likely be significantly happier with an owner doing the opposite (while treating the car within the guidelines of the warranty, I'm pretty sure I'm a worst case scenario owner).

*IF* battery degradation keeps the same pace, the battery could be replaced under warranty in around 2 more years of my use. No-one REALLY knows what will happen, so I'm happy to drive it and find out.

I hope this has given some food for thought. The Spark, knowingly or unknowingly, makes an excellent ecological and economical choice, as a primary or secondary vehicle for many drivers, including myself.

Nice to know that Sparky can really get up and go! Driving the car the way you do, do you have any estimate of your current HV battery capacity at 36,300 miles? I am interested to know how much, if any, "hard driving" and "hard launches" affect the HV battery capacity. You Energy Information screen could give a calculated rough estimate if you reset the screen after a full charge and then record the readings just prior to re-charging.

 

[TheLondonBroiler]

Nice to know that Sparky can really get up and go!

Disclaimer: I'm a bit of a hearty ******* that loves acceleration and leaving people dumbfounded. Launching is a guilty, but reasonably safe pleasure. You won't ever catch me weaving in and out of traffic and hardly ever do I ever exceed speed limits, except to maintain flow of traffic. Driving is an inherently unsafe task, everyone is responsible for their own actions.

I am interested to know how much, if any, "hard driving" and "hard launches" affect the HV battery capacity.

I believe a look into Tesla Ludicrous Mode, and the surrounding available information gives some strong hints. From an article on Electrek https://www.google.com/url?sa=i&source=web&cd=&ved=2ahUKEwjTmpvquOPeAhUtU98KHeooCc8QzPwBegQIARAC&url=https%3A%2F%2Felectrek.co%2F2016%2F12%2F23%2Ftesla-limiting-power-performance-launch-mode%2F&psig=AOvVaw30V42NTMyZBaMSgkCo25Xl&ust=1542819548122240

"...Before this limitation my car would pull around 1600 amps from the battery and 512 KW of power when fully charged, now the car will only pull around 1500 amps and 480 KW of power, a loss of about 40 HP on a 4 month old car.”

So a Tesla set up to do Ludicrous Mode with a 100kwh pack could draw 512kw (whether that's system total or specifically power to the motors, we don't know). A Spark with a 19kwh pack (less than 1/5 the capacity of a Tesla 100kw pack) is able to put 105kw to the motor (120kw system total). Make that to scale, and the Spark is able to EXCEED ludicrous mode, (600kwh+ system total or 525kw+ to the motor(s)) with no throttling/disabling over time that I'm aware of. What does that equal? I'm pretty sure (but not 100%), that it's more wear on the battery. I know this logic may be incorrect, but I'm convinced enough to post it as a hypothesis.

I'm down some more.

 

[fizzit]

I recently bought a 2015 with DCFC and 40k miles. The GOM range looked good when I bought it and the car was in good shape so I assumed the battery had to have a decent amount of life left. However the GOM range dropped quite a bit as soon as I started driving, and I recently downloaded the PIDs for Torque Pro to find that I have 14.4kWh capacity. Pretty disappointing, I'm guessing the previous owner must have used fast charging most of the time.

Many driving variables affect the calculated GOM value displayed on the dash display. My rule of thumb is to estimate my GOM range by multiplying the measured battery capacity by 5 mi / kWh. In your case it is 14.4 x 5 = 72 miles. This would be a rough estimate for driving at 65 mph. Use of the heater or AC can and will drop your GOM significantly depending on how you set your cabin temperature.

Comparing the TorquePro data between my 2014 Spark EV w/o DCFC and my 2016 Spark EV with DCFC shows little difference in the HV battery degradation rate and, when I am not driving locally or need to quickly charge for a local trip, I charge my 2016 Spark EV using DCFC.

Do you really average 5 mi/kWh at 65mph? I haven't seen less than 16kW on flat roads at 65mph, putting my freeway max efficiency at around 4 mi/kWh. Are you on stock tires? I have some really crappy tires that the dealership put on but I'm running them at 37psi and I wouldn't think that tires alone would make a 25% difference.

 

[MrDRMorgan]

I recently bought a 2015 with DCFC and 40k miles. The GOM range looked good when I bought it and the car was in good shape so I assumed the battery had to have a decent amount of life left. However the GOM range dropped quite a bit as soon as I started driving, and I recently downloaded the PIDs for Torque Pro to find that I have 14.4kWh capacity. Pretty disappointing, I'm guessing the previous owner must have used fast charging most of the time.

Many driving variables affect the calculated GOM value displayed on the dash display. My rule of thumb is to estimate my GOM range by multiplying the measured battery capacity by 5 mi / kWh. In your case it is 14.4 x 5 = 72 miles. This would be a rough estimate for driving at 65 mph. Use of the heater or AC can and will drop your GOM significantly depending on how you set your cabin temperature.

Comparing the TorquePro data between my 2014 Spark EV w/o DCFC and my 2016 Spark EV with DCFC shows little difference in the HV battery degradation rate and, when I am not driving locally or need to quickly charge for a local trip, I charge my 2016 Spark EV using DCFC.

Do you really average 5 mi/kWh at 65mph? I haven't seen less than 16kW on flat roads at 65mph, putting my freeway max efficiency at around 4 mi/kWh. Are you on stock tires? I have some really crappy tires that the dealership put on but I'm running them at 37psi and I wouldn't think that tires alone would make a 25% difference.

Yes, I do achieve at least 5 mi/kWh at 65 mph on a flat freeway and in 65-80 deg. F weather without any headwinds or tailwinds. I am running the original stock tires on all 4 wheels and I too set the cold pressure to 37 psi.

 

[TheLondonBroiler]

Yes, I do achieve at least 5 mi/kWh at 65 mph on a flat freeway and in 65-80 deg. F weather without any headwinds or tailwinds. I am running the original stock tires on all 4 wheels and I too set the cold pressure to 37 psi.

+1

I averaged over 5 mi/kwh doing 62mph with the ac on this past summer (factory Bridgestone ecopias, 39psi cold). https://youtu.be/Y6VG6B2UovE

Tires make a significant difference.

 

[MrDRMorgan]

Yes, I do achieve at least 5 mi/kWh at 65 mph on a flat freeway and in 65-80 deg. F weather without any headwinds or tailwinds. I am running the original stock tires on all 4 wheels and I too set the cold pressure to 37 psi.

+1

I averaged over 5 mi/kwh doing 62mph with the ac on this past summer (factory Bridgestone ecopias, 39psi cold). https://youtu.be/Y6VG6B2UovE

Tires make a significant difference.

I would have to agree on the tires. When I replaced my front tires on my 2014 Spark EV and my leased (now returned) 2015 Spark EV, I replaced them with Brodgestone Ecopia 422 Plus 185/55R 15 82V. Cold tire pressure is set to 37 psi. I have not seen any range or performance degradation as compared to the original tires. No handling issues either.

I would also agree that it is possible - I have done it - to get over 5 mi / kWh at 60 to 62 mph while using the AC. Usually I run 5.3 - 5.5 mi / kWh at those conditions on a flat highway. I average about 5.0 mi / kWh when I drive 62 - 65 mph, my wife is in the car, the AC is on and we drive to Livermore, CA and back which takes us over the Altamont Pass. The pass is a real kWh "killer" but I get some of it back on the downhills. Total round trip mileage is 90 miles.

 

[sparkandbolt]

First time poster, not so long time lurker. I have a 2015 spark ev with around 35K miles and have torque pro set up. The battery capacity was showing 14.2KWH and the behavior of the battery on the instrument cluster and the behavior of the energy usage on the infotainment screen were consistent with this number. I gave it in for service and they said that there was a code for HPCM2 replacement. I'll paste the technical details at the end. After the HPCM2 replacement, torque pro now shows battery capacity as 17.8KWH. I'm wondering if anyone has experienced this before? Appreciate any insights. Thanks!

Tech. details:

Tech found code P0D5700 stored in system, found bulletin with doc# 3225327 available. Tech followed the diagnosis chart system and performed testing on hpcm2 module. corrected by hybrid powertrain control module 2.

 

[NORTON]

I had the same failure, long story, and they performed the SW update at the same time and my battery capacity has been displaying really great numbers since that time!

It's just SW right? It's just displaying and maybe using available capacity differently now. The pack didn't change. Who knows?

Does you car had the optional DCFC?
Definitely have the dealer perform a DCFC before you accept it back from them.

A good read if your car is in the shop for this sort of problem: http://www.mychevysparkev.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=2&t=5165
Long thread, but in it I had both HPCM's replaced along with the $800 SDM (on my dime, bc "it's not part of the Powertrain").

 

[TheLondonBroiler]

The battery capacity was showing 14.2KWH and the behavior of the battery on the instrument cluster and the behavior of the energy usage on the infotainment screen were consistent with this number.

After the HPCM2 replacement, torque pro now shows battery capacity as 17.8KWH.

...WTF...

I appreciate this info.

Did you ever pay close attention to how long it took to charge to full or cell voltage(s) behavior prior to the hpcm2 replacement? I've noticed from both from my evse and time it takes to charge to full, that my supposed degraded battery capacity seems valid. Additionally, when I ran it down to 4%, the battery voltages were 2.8v.

BUT! If the HPCM2 is defective, I suppose all these factors could be under the same umbrella of false data. This wouldn't be a problem exclusive to GM either, as Nissan just went through this with the 30kwh LEAF.....

 

[sparkandbolt]

I took a long trip and got some data. Don't know how to upload pictures here, but I got a bunch of pictures with torquepro and camera.

On the energy details screen, it showed 16.6 KWH used (Driving 75% Climate 14%) - minor note, I charged car for 3-4 minutes on level 2 within first few miles of charging as the heat was going to be on and I could.

The instrument cluster showed 51.8 miles @ 3.2 mi/kwh - it was raining, not sure if I have stock tires or not. Battery icon on IC was showing one yellow bar and flashing. Torque pro data is below

Batt % DIC - 11.0
SoC Raw HD - 13.6
Batt Temp 60.8
Batt capacity - 17.833

I have some MG voltage data but it doesn't make sense, some have negative voltages, MG2 329V, MG6 335.55V, MG7 317V - Tran temp 116F

Battery Cell Voltage
# Voltage
1 3.4499
10 3.4349
11 3.4312
12 3.4312
13 3.4374
14 3.4424
15 3.4312
16 3.4374
17 3.4399
18 3.4261
19 3.4237
2 3.4349
20 3.4324
21 3.4149
22 3.4187
23 3.4199
24 3.4249
25 3.4337
26 3.4274
27 3.4234
28 3.4299
29 3.4299
3 3.4324
30 3.4312
31 3.4324
32 3.4324
33 3.4424
34 3.4337
35 3.4261
36 3.4299
37 3.4274
38 missing in screenshot
39 3.4212
4 3.4237
40 3.4224
41 3.4224
42 3.4299
43 3.4249
44 3.4361
45 3.4224
46 3.4286
47 3.4299
48 3.4461
49 3.4624
5 3.4161
50 3.4337
51 3.4374
52 3.4374
53 3.4337
54 3.4299
55 3.4312
56 3.4361
57 3.4412
58 3.4399
59 3.4361
6 3.4237
60 3.4386
61 3.4399
62 3.4412
63 3.4299
64 3.4424
65 3.4474
66 3.4361
67 missing in screenshot
68 3.4261
69 3.4399
7 3.4137
70 3.4424
71 3.4249
72 3.4349
72 3.4349
73 3.4386
74 3.4374
75 3.4374
76 3.4399
77 3.4374
78 3.4374
79 3.4274
8 3.4261
80 3.4424
81 missing in screenshot
82 3.4374
83 3.4374
84 3.4312
85 3.4349
86 3.4324
87 3.4249
88 3.4261
89 3.4286
9 3.4299
90 3.4324
91 3.4286
92 3.4324
93 3.4349
94 3.4361
95 3.4349
96 3.4199

After this, the car charged to full (97% I think) for about five hours and 15 minutes. Charge rate = 16.6KWH/5.25 hours = 3.16kw

I can post the voltages when full some other time as I think car is sleeping. My car does have DCFC, I have used it before, but not since HPCM2 update. I don't frequently need to DCFC so it'll be a while before I do so.

Appreciate your thoughts on this, thanks!

 

[MrDRMorgan]

I took a long trip and got some data. Don't know how to upload pictures here, but I got a bunch of pictures with torquepro and camera.

On the energy details screen, it showed 16.6 KWH used (Driving 75% Climate 14%) - minor note, I charged car for 3-4 minutes on level 2 within first few miles of charging as the heat was going to be on and I could.

The instrument cluster showed 51.8 miles @ 3.2 mi/kwh - it was raining, not sure if I have stock tires or not. Battery icon on IC was showing one yellow bar and flashing. Torque pro data is below

Batt % DIC - 11.0
SoC Raw HD - 13.6
Batt Temp 60.8
Batt capacity - 17.833

I have some MG voltage data but it doesn't make sense, some have negative voltages, MG2 329V, MG6 335.55V, MG7 317V - Tran temp 116F

Battery Cell Voltage
# Voltage
1 3.4499
10 3.4349
11 3.4312
12 3.4312
13 3.4374
14 3.4424
15 3.4312
16 3.4374
17 3.4399
18 3.4261
19 3.4237
2 3.4349
20 3.4324
21 3.4149
22 3.4187
23 3.4199
24 3.4249
25 3.4337
26 3.4274
27 3.4234
28 3.4299
29 3.4299
3 3.4324
30 3.4312
31 3.4324
32 3.4324
33 3.4424
34 3.4337
35 3.4261
36 3.4299
37 3.4274
38 missing in screenshot
39 3.4212
4 3.4237
40 3.4224
41 3.4224
42 3.4299
43 3.4249
44 3.4361
45 3.4224
46 3.4286
47 3.4299
48 3.4461
49 3.4624
5 3.4161
50 3.4337
51 3.4374
52 3.4374
53 3.4337
54 3.4299
55 3.4312
56 3.4361
57 3.4412
58 3.4399
59 3.4361
6 3.4237
60 3.4386
61 3.4399
62 3.4412
63 3.4299
64 3.4424
65 3.4474
66 3.4361
67 missing in screenshot
68 3.4261
69 3.4399
7 3.4137
70 3.4424
71 3.4249
72 3.4349
72 3.4349
73 3.4386
74 3.4374
75 3.4374
76 3.4399
77 3.4374
78 3.4374
79 3.4274
8 3.4261
80 3.4424
81 missing in screenshot
82 3.4374
83 3.4374
84 3.4312
85 3.4349
86 3.4324
87 3.4249
88 3.4261
89 3.4286
9 3.4299
90 3.4324
91 3.4286
92 3.4324
93 3.4349
94 3.4361
95 3.4349
96 3.4199

After this, the car charged to full (97% I think) for about five hours and 15 minutes. Charge rate = 16.6KWH/5.25 hours = 3.16kw

I can post the voltages when full some other time as I think car is sleeping. My car does have DCFC, I have used it before, but not since HPCM2 update. I don't frequently need to DCFC so it'll be a while before I do so.

Appreciate your thoughts on this, thanks!

I experienced a SERVICE VEHICLE SOON light and a 1.5 kWh drop in calculated battery capacity 6 months before I turned in my leased 2015 Spark EV with DCFC in May 2018. I took it to the dealer and they found codes P1E00, P3009 and P3023. They replaced the battery charger control module but I never regained the lost battery capacity. Using TorquePro, I measured the battery capacity on a friend's 2015 Spark EV and it measured 14.8 kWh with 30k miles on the ODO. One question I do have: why is all of this happening to 2015 Spark EVs?

I started using TorquePro in June 2018 to track the battery capacity drop in my 2014 and 2016 Spark EVs. As of this morning, 6 months and 34 measurements later, both cars have exhibited a drop of 0.5 kWh. At the last measurement this morning the 2014 BC is 16.7 kWh and the 2016 BC is 16.1 kWh. Both full-charge GOM values are over 90 miles.

I usually charge overnight using L1 for the 2014 and L2 for the 2016 so I am wondering if the drop in capacity is related more to the drop in ambient temperature between summer and winter here in Central California. If it is, then I should see it gradually go back up by summer next year. During the 6-month measurement timeframe, the 2014 has been driven 2422 miles and the 2016 has been driven 5049 miles. the 2014 has 16,566 miles on the ODO and the 2016 has 15333 miles on the ODO. Both cars are current with all software updates.

 

[sparkandbolt]

I just used dcfc to go from 50 percent to 80 percent in ten minutes. Battery capacity still shows 17.833. Temperature of battery was around 70 degrees when finished, outside temperature was 45 degrees or so.

 

[MrDRMorgan]

I just used dcfc to go from 50 percent to 80 percent in ten minutes. Battery capacity still shows 17.833. Temperature of battery was around 70 degrees when finished, outside temperature was 45 degrees or so.

Using TorquePro, measure and record your battery capacity each week for the next few months and see if you see any gradual drop in battery capacity. Postings on this forum for many 2015 Spark EVs with around 30k miles on the ODO indicate a battery capacity in the low 15s or high 14s. It almost looks like they replaced your HV battery. I say this because new, my 2015 Spark EV gave me calculated values of 18+ kWh. At 30k miles it was between 15 and 15.5 kWh.

At 12k miles on December 2017, my 2014 Spark EV calculated battery capacity was 17.8 kWh. On 23 May 2018 at 14K miles the calculated battery capacity had dropped to 16.7 kWh. Over the same time interval and driving distance, my 2016 Spark EV calculated battery capacity ranged between 16.8 kWh and 17.7 kWh with 17.7 kWh the value on 24 May 2018.

I started using TorquePro in June 2018. My 2014 Spark EV started at 17.2 kWh and most recently (21 December 18) was measured to be 16.7 kWh having been driven 2500 miles. Over the same time interval, my 2016 Spark EV started at 16.6 kWh and most recently was measured at 16.1 kWh having been driven 5000 miles.

I am still trying to understand all of this.


Added note: One thing I have noticed from my TorquePro data is the drop in battery capacity seems to track with the drop in battery temperature. If this is true, then I should expect the battery capacity to increase as daily ambient temperature increases.