Battery degredation

[MrDRMorgan]

.... This morning, when I powered up the 2016, the battery conditioning started right up. But, the 2014 did nothing when I powered it up. This leaves me wondering if the battery conditioning function in the 2014 is operating correctly. ....

This, and you saying the display never shows power used for battery conditioning, sounds like there is a problem...
Now what?

Good Question. Here is some data I took this afternoon after both cars were driven to the same destination, sat side-by-side out in the hot sun for four hours and were then driven home and tested. All data was taken using TorquePro and an OBDLink MX adapter.

2016 Spark EV
Battery Temp: 30 deg. C
Trans Temp: 44 deg. C
Battery Capacity: 16.7 kWh
SOC: 59.2%
Avg. Cell Voltage: 3.84 volts
Battery Conditioning Pump RPM:
AC off: 2100 RPM with car powered on
AC on: 4100 RPM with car and AC powered on

2014 Spark EV
Battery Temp: 31 deg. C
Trans Temp: 52 deg. C
Battery Capacity: 17.2 kWh
SOC: 61.6%
Avg. Cell Voltage: 3.29 volts
Battery Conditioning Pump RPM:
AC off: 0 RPM with car powered on
AC on: 2100 RPM with car and AC powered on

It appears to me that either there is a problem with the battery conditioning function in the 2014 or the turn-on temperature is set higher than the 2016. I guess it is possible too that this is how it is supposed to work. The battery heatsink in the 2014 is different than the 2015 / 2016 and this may be part of the explanation. At least I now know that the battery in the 2014 is being cooled whenever the cabin AC is turned on. My 2014 does not have the DCFC option so I do not have to consider battery heating caused by 40-50 kWh DCFC charging power.

One test I can run it to let the car set in my driveway all day on a very hot (100 deg. F), read the battery temp in the morning and early evening and compare the readings. With respect to the car overall, the car has been completely trouble-free and is performing exceptionally well; even in the current 100 deg. F heat!

 

[CCIE]

The 2014 A123 battery uses a different chemistry than the 2015/16 LG-Chem battery. It's possible that it requires less cooling.

 

[MrDRMorgan]

The 2014 A123 battery uses a different chemistry than the 2015/16 LG-Chem battery. It's possible that it requires less cooling.

Yes, I am aware of that. The 2014 has a large baseplate heat sink. The 2015 /2016 have a different design. So how they are cooled is probably different from the 2014.

I would like to know the cooling parameters for both systems but I probably will not find that information. However, I can measure the battery temperature and cooling pump RPM.

I have not had any problems with my 2014. I only have 14k miles on the ODO and my battery capacity has been stable at 17.2 kWh since I started measuring it using TorquePro and an OBDLink MX adapter. I can use that battery capacity value as a baseline against which to measure any future decline in capacity over time / mileage. I can do the same for my 2016.

 

[TheLondonBroiler]

I only accumulate battery conditioning on the energy details screen when I'm using AC and not moving (I spend a good bit of time in my Spark before work.... assuming I arrive early, which I generally do. We've had many 90°F+ days, but not over 100 in the Carolinas.

My trans temp according to Torque Pro, gets up to 140~150 generally, but when I turn my car off, it jumps to 180°F, outside temp goes to -40°F, and my phone warns me of icy conditions...... I think it's a glitch.

 

[CSW]

I only accumulate battery conditioning on the energy details screen when I'm using AC and not moving (I spend a good bit of time in my Spark before work.... assuming I arrive early, which I generally do. We've had many 90°F+ days, but not over 100 in the Carolinas.

My trans temp according to Torque Pro, gets up to 140~150 generally, but when I turn my car off, it jumps to 180°F, outside temp goes to -40°F, and my phone warns me of icy conditions...... I think it's a glitch.

I too noticed the most batt conditioning showing used when I had the car sitting in the parking lot with the a/c running on a 100 degree day. That is when I used like 5-6% on my previous comments. Both numbers on a 2015 and 2016 spark. I don't remmeber exactly, but when I had my 2014 I would have done that as well and I never saw the car indicate using any batt conditiong ever.

 

[MrDRMorgan]

I only accumulate battery conditioning on the energy details screen when I'm using AC and not moving (I spend a good bit of time in my Spark before work.... assuming I arrive early, which I generally do. We've had many 90°F+ days, but not over 100 in the Carolinas.

My trans temp according to Torque Pro, gets up to 140~150 generally, but when I turn my car off, it jumps to 180°F, outside temp goes to -40°F, and my phone warns me of icy conditions...... I think it's a glitch.

I too noticed the most batt conditioning showing used when I had the car sitting in the parking lot with the a/c running on a 100 degree day. That is when I used like 5-6% on my previous comments. Both numbers on a 2015 and 2016 spark. I don't remmeber exactly, but when I had my 2014 I would have done that as well and I never saw the car indicate using any batt conditiong ever.

I think you have confirmed my current belief regarding battery conditioning in the 2014 Spark EV. It IS different from that found in the 2015 and 2016 Spark EVs. The 2014 battery conditioning does not perform like that found in the 2015 and 2016 Spark EVs. I can live with that fact as long as it is working properly.

7/25: 103 deg. F at 5pm today. In this heat, my wife and I took a trip to Costco and, upon returning to our home, I put my 2014 Spark EV in the garage and decided to see if the battery conditioning would work. I set charging to immediate, L1 charging current to 12 amps and then connected my L1 EVSE to the car. Wala! The fan came on and I heard the AC pump start spinning up. It DOES WORK!!

 

[CCIE]

I just used GDS2 to see what HPCM2 reports for my battery capacity. Also included are the previous measures I’ve made with GDS2. Degradation seems fairly linear.

07-29-2017, 11000 miles, 18.5kwh
12-03-2017, 16700 miles, 18.1kwh
07-26-2018, 25800 miles, 17.5kwh

 

[Anonymous]

What is the PID definition for the Chevy Spark EV Battery Capacity? I can't find it in the Volt PIDs spreadsheet, and the Bolt PIDs spreadsheet has a capacity PID that doesn't work for me.

 

[MrDRMorgan]

What is the PID definition for the Chevy Spark EV Battery Capacity? I can't find it in the Volt PIDs spreadsheet, and the Bolt PIDs spreadsheet has a capacity PID that doesn't work for me.

I am using the Bolt PID list and MS Excel CSV file provided by Sean Graham on the Chevy Bolt Forum. These files can also be found posted on this forum. I am using TorquePro on a Nexus 7 Android tablet and an OBDLink MX Bluetooth adapter. This combination has been tested on 2014, 2015 and 2016 Spark EVs and it worked for all three. The specific PID I am using for battery capacity is !Battery Capacity.

I hope this information helps you!

 

[TheLondonBroiler]

I also used the Bolt .csv file, that a user (beachbum) provided the link for, in this forum. I initially tried to be a cheap a$$, and use torque lite (free), but I couldn't load individual pids or the whole .csv file. Torque Pro is the first app I've ever purchased. It works well enough, an excellent value for $5. Battery capacity is only displayed to the tenth of a kwh (ex: 15.1 kwh) in a widget, however, when viewing the pid selector screen, it gives a value to a ten thousandth (edit: It's really a measure of about 1/30th of a kwh).

My battery, according to Torque, has gradually gone from 15.4kwh capacity to 15.1kwh, in just this month. I think between charging to 100% everyday, "full use of" acceleration, frequent fast charging, and hot temperatures, my Spark isn't being babied, while not being used in a manner that is outside the terms of the warranty.

I may have to press my employer a bit harder for a 110v outlet, so that I don't have daily range anxiety this winter (and likely degrade the battery worse in the process).

 

[MrDRMorgan]

I also used the Bolt .csv file, that a user (beachbum) provided the link for, in this forum. I initially tried to be a cheap a$$, and use torque lite (free), but I couldn't load individual pids or the whole .csv file. Torque Pro is the first app I've ever purchased. It works well enough, an excellent value for $5. Battery capacity is only displayed to the tenth of a kwh (ex: 15.1 kwh) in a widget, however, when viewing the pid selector screen, it gives a value to a ten thousandth (edit: It's really a measure of about 1/30th of a kwh).

My battery, according to Torque, has gradually gone from 15.4kwh capacity to 15.1kwh, in just this month. I think between charging to 100% everyday, "full use of" acceleration, frequent fast charging, and hot temperatures, my Spark isn't being babied, while not being used in a manner that is outside the terms of the warranty.

I may have to press my employer a bit harder for a 110v outlet, so that I don't have daily range anxiety this winter (and likely degrade the battery worse in the process).

Thanks for the info. For reasons that I do not understand, 2015 Spark EVs seem to have a battery capacity around 15 kWh at ~30k miles on the ODO. Yours would be number 4 that I have seen reported.
But... the way you drive the car will impact your GOM range. I typically drive mostly around town, in L and around 40-50 mph. So, it is not unusual to see my miles / kWh run between 6 to 7. At 6 mi/kWh and at 15 kWh HV battery capacity, I would still get a full charge range of 80 miles. This is more than enough daily range for my needs. A friend of mine, who just turned in his leased 2015, had a battery capacity of 14.8 kWh. However, his driving to and from work was mostly on the freeway at 70 mph and the reduced battery capacity gave him range anxiety.

 

[TheLondonBroiler]

it is not unusual to see my miles / kWh run between 6 to 7

Likewise. I'm currently seeing ~6.5mi/kwh to work & ~5.5 on the way home. I just like to get up to speed fast Lifetime mi/kwh is now 5.4 (tripometer has never been reset). Sad to think the eventual replacement likely won't be nearly as efficient..... we'll see I guess. The Bolt isn't too bad, Hyundai/Kia are producing exciting BEVs, and a Tesla 3 might be worthwhile after all.

 

[CCIE]

For those seeing low reported values (15-16kwh) at 30,000 miles, are you regularly charging the battery to full?

I know the Volt has battery capacity calculation issues (and reduced actual range) if the battery isn't regularly charged to full. The car's computers really need to see full charge cycles with post-charge cell-balancing in order to know the battery's true capacity. Possibly the Spark EV is the same.

 

[MrDRMorgan]

For those seeing low reported values (15-16kwh) at 30,000 miles, are you regularly charging the battery to full?

I know the Volt has battery capacity calculation issues (and reduced actual range) if the battery isn't regularly charged to full. The car's computers really need to see full charge cycles with post-charge cell-balancing in order to know the battery's true capacity. Possibly the Spark EV is the same.

With the current high heat where I live - 100+ deg. F - and with my garage running 95 to 100 deg. F, both of my Spark EVs are plugged in most of the time with each car set to the charge immediate mode. This allows the battery cooling function to keep the battery in each car cool. I have both an L1 EVSE which I have to set to 12 amps each charging cycle, and a 3.3 kWh L2 EVSE. So, right now, both cars see full charging most of the time just to keep the battery cool.

Then there is the camp that says don't fully charge the HV battery unless you need the range. In cooler weather, I set my charging / disconnect times to have each car charged to 75-80% capacity each morning at 8am.

 

[TheLondonBroiler]

For those seeing low reported values (15-16kwh) at 30,000 miles, are you regularly charging the battery to full?

Yes. Using a Juicebox 40 for home charging (hopefully, a little bit of future proofing) charge to 100% everyday (if there was a 10% "hilltop" reserve, like in the Bolt, I could probably get away with using it in the summer at least). I've never charged to 100% with the level 1 / 110 volt esve. I check individual cell voltages via Torque, every week/every other week, and they are VERY balanced (like to a hundredth of a volt).

Minus leaving traffic lights to display electric car performance, I drive very conservatively. Here's a shot from my dash before running some errands this morning.

 

[espresso]

Hi
new owner here.
What PID codes are you using for !Battery Capacity (PID 2241a3) and !Battery Level Displayed (PID 228334) ??
Those 2 codes are showing no data on my TorquePro.
Maybe the CVS file I have downloaded is no up to date or something...

Thx

 

[TheLondonBroiler]

This is from my download on 6/8/18. Haven't had any problems. My last stated capacity is a hair below 15kwh. I'm pretty well convinced, in my case, and one other I've seen, that torque is reporting capacity 0.6kwh lower than the energy usage screen calculation.

 

[MrDRMorgan]

Hi
new owner here.
What PID codes are you using for !Battery Capacity (PID 2241a3) and !Battery Level Displayed (PID 228334) ??
Those 2 codes are showing no data on my TorquePro.
Maybe the CVS file I have downloaded is no up to date or something...

Thx

The PID file I am using was prepared by Sean Graham and I found it on the Chevy Bolt Forum. Boatbum1 posted about it on this forum. The PIDs you listed - 2241A3 for battery capacity and 228334 for battery level displayed are the ones I am using. These have been working just fine for my 2014 and 2016 Spark EVs. I even tested a friend's 2015 Spark EV and it worked there too. Check to make sure your CSV file is not corrupted.

 

[MrDRMorgan]

This is from my download on 6/8/18. Haven't had any problems. My last stated capacity is a hair below 15kwh. I'm pretty well convinced, in my case, and one other I've seen, that torque is reporting capacity 0.6kwh lower than the energy usage screen calculation.

I found it was very difficult to completely factor out the effect regeneration had on the battery capacity calculation using the Energy Screen data. The TorquePro data is much, much more stable with little variation.

 

[espresso]

Thx guys,

This is exactly the same data in the CVS file...
I'll do more reading testing when I get my new to me Spark 2015 delivered later this week.
I tried to get as much data from battery as I could before negotiating oevr last weekend.
At least I got Cells Voltage and Avg Cells Voltage readout which was 4.1V all around so from my understanding the bat is healthy will see about it's capacity later.
The dash was showing 110+ km (70+ Miles) both times I test drive it.