High Votage DC Charging Availability

[kenn]

Hello, 7 Oct. 2013

Does anyone know for sure when the HV DC charger will be available? Have heard they can be order now and should be available in Dec. 2013. From my past experience, am somewhat of a non-believer in what is heard from GM management(at my level anyway).

When the HV DC chargers are available for the Spark EV, will there be any HV DC charging stations? Have heard that the CHAdeMO Japanese standard are not the same as ASE standard which is used on the Spark EV. Really am unable to understand why an adapter can not be made to convert the CHAdeMO to the SAE. HV DC (480 VDC is 480 VDC whether it goes into Telsa, CHAdeMo, or SAE).

Seems to me that lot of egos are standing in the way of EV advancement. kennhttp://www.mychevysparkev.com/forum/posting.php?mode=post&f=7#

 

[fengshui]

If you don't trust GM, then there's no way to *know* when the DC model will be available. It'll be ready when it's ready.

There is one SAE DC charger in the US right now, and it costs $10 to use. More are coming, but it'll probably be at least a year or two before they're even close to widespread. An adapter is possible, but it would have to translate the signaling. As you note, DC is DC, but the systems use different methods of signaling between the EV and the EVSE.

 

[kenn]

Hi fengshui,

The Spark EV is assembled in S Korea and was thinking someone might have a contact at the assemble point. Theoretically, GM would dictate when SAE combo would be available, but there is a wide difference between theory and actuality. Also, the available dates given by GM may have changed.

Where in the US is the SAE DC charge located and do you know who made it? Where did you find the signal information differences between the CHAdeMO and the SAE Combo?

Hope the SAE charger get used extensively and many more are installed. Each one will reduce the range anxiety for some.
kenn

 

[fengshui]

Where in the US is the SAE DC charge located and do you know who made it? Where did you find the signal information differences between the CHAdeMO and the SAE Combo?

The SAE Combo Charger is in San Diego:
http://cleantechnica.com/2013/10/07/first-public-sae-combo-charger-evs-phevs-hits-san-diego/

I haven't found detailed information on the SAE Combo signaling, but it's some form of PLC. If you contact SAE, they can probably give you full details:
http://www.sae.org/mags/aei/10128
Wikipedia has a nice summar of how the signaling works on the AC J1772:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/SAE_J1772#Signaling

Here's the official signaling documentation for CHAdeMO:
http://chademo.com/05_protocol.html

 

[TonyWilliams]

Tesla is producing a CHAdeMO to Tesla adaptor that could theoretically be used to plug into the Spark's Frankenplug port with a yet unbuilt, but somewhat simple additional adaptor (that doesn't currently exist).

The cost is likely to be about $1000 for the Tesla adaptor, and I estimate about $500 for the unavailable but likely Tesla to Frankenplug one.

The California NRG/eVgo deal will install 200 Frankenplug charges next to CHAdeMO ones over 4 years, once the requirements have been met (they have not yet). The singular one in San Diego was done as a favor to a request by GM and BMW. It is not part of the requirement, is not UL listed and operates on European 400 volts using a special European transformer.

 

[cwerdna]

There is at least one more J1772 CCS DC fast charger. It's in Arizona: http://www.teslamotorsclub.com/showthread.php/14207-Tesla-CHAdeMo-Update?p=283203&viewfull=1#post283203. Not sure if it's available for public access but to its location, it would seem to be next to useless for the currently only sold in OR And CA Spark EV.

Tesla is producing a CHAdeMO to Tesla adaptor that could theoretically be used to plug into the Spark's Frankenplug port with a yet unbuilt, but somewhat simple additional adaptor (that doesn't currently exist).

The cost is likely to be about $1000 for the Tesla adaptor, and I estimate about $500 for the unavailable but likely Tesla to Frankenplug one.

The aforementioned CHAdeMO to Tesla adapter is at http://shop.teslamotors.com/collections/model-s/products/chademo-adapter.

As for the OP's question, there already is high voltage DC fast charging semi-widely available, just not J1772 CCS.

http://www.chademo.com/ - http://www.westcoastgreenhighway.com/WAelectrichighways.htm and http://www.oregon.gov/ODOT/HWY/OIPP/Pages/inn_ev_sites.aspx enabled TonyWilliams to get thru WA and OR pretty quickly in his Leaf for his 2012 BC2BC (Baja, California, Mexico to British Columbia, Canada) drive.
http://www.teslamotors.com/supercharger - and unlike most CHAdeMO installations which have usually only 1 or 2 plugs, there are 4 to 10 charging stalls at each location.

Tesla just completed their #DriveFree publicity stunt and posted a pic of their Model S in Vancouver BC. See http://www.teslamotors.com/about/press/releases/tesla-energizes-west-coast-supercharger-corridor and https://www.facebook.com/hashtag/drivefree.

This morning in San Diego, two Model S will embark on a 1,750 mile #DriveFree road trip to Vancouver powered only by Tesla Superchargers. The journey will take them through Santa Barbara, San Francisco, Sacramento, Mt. Shasta, Portland, Seattle, and Vancouver, with stops at popular destinations such as the Santa Monica pier, Monterey Bay and the world famous Pike Place Fish Market. Throughout the trip, Tesla will be hosting owner and media events and providing real time updates from the road on Twitter, Facebook and Instagram

 

[genosensor]

There's a free SAE combo DC charger at the VW research building in Belmont, CA.
I tried it two days ago. It worked fine.

 

[cwerdna]

There's a free SAE combo DC charger at the VW research building in Belmont, CA.
I tried it two days ago. It worked fine.

There is a running thread at http://www.mychevysparkev.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=7&t=3603 and the above is mentioned there.

 

[cwerdna]

To give some folks a taste of DC FC, from some of my usage of a CHAdeMO DC FC (not compatible w/Spark EV), I had these 3 sessions (2 mine and 1 is a session I started for someone ahead of me in line who didn't have a Chargepoint card.)

A few weeks ago, in ~28 mins, I picked up 6.9 kWh and battery ended up at ~87% SoC. I stopped charging as the DC FC had ramped down to ~5.5 kW, which is below my max L2 speed, even at 208 volts.

Today, another Leaf charged for 35:07 and picked up 15.3 kWh.

Mine went for ~26.5 minutes and I picked up 9.2 kWh. I hadn't ramped down to below 10 kW yet, but I stopped a few mins after the dealer officially closed as I didn't want risk being trapped in the dealer's parking lot, since most put up chains and place blocker cars.

 

[Nashco]

It's very important to note battery SOC at beginning and end of charge, temperatures, and parasitic drain (cabin HVAC) when comparing one charge to the next. For example, my Leaf at 85% with the heater on charges the battery slow as molasses even when plugged into a DC charger, but without HVAC and with a low SOC the same car at the same station charges the battery about 20 times faster. Of course, this isn't helpful when discussing a Spark EV because each OEM/battery/charger combination interacts a little differently.

I'm looking forward to quantifying the maximum charge rates with SOC and temps on the Spark EV.

Bryce

 

[cwerdna]

It's very important to note battery SOC at beginning and end of charge, temperatures, and parasitic drain (cabin HVAC) when comparing one charge to the next. For example, my Leaf at 85% with the heater on charges the battery slow as molasses even when plugged into a DC charger, but without HVAC and with a low SOC the same car at the same station charges the battery about 20 times faster.

Yeah, as the % SoC rises, the power definitely tapers.

At the dealer I've been using, prior to the Chargepoint equipment being installed, the LCD would show voltage, amperage and I believe a % SoC. Now w/Chargepoint equipment it shows neither voltage nor amperage. It shows power output, energy dispensed (in kWh), session length and % SoC.

On my few weeks ago case, I started at 55% SoC and it started at 41 kW output, but within a few seconds, it'd gone down to 39 kW. By the end of my session, I was at ~87% SoC (dash display and DC FC display were pretty close, usually within 1% of each other) and I was down to ~5.5 kW output.

For the other Leaf case today, I think they started at 20ish% SoC. At ~31 mins, they were at 86% SoC, had picked up 14.8 kWh and power level was down to 9.5 kW.

For my charge today, I believe I started at mid-30% SoC (have 36% at 1:09 into session) at 41 kW. At 18:19, I was at 73% SoC, picked up 7.50 kWh and power output was down to ~16 kW.

 

[Nashco]

To be clear, that is all referencing the Nissan Leaf. People interested in specific details on how the Nisssan Leaf DC charging works would be best advised by visiting:

http://www.mynissanleaf.com

Bryce

 

[xylhim]

Just noticed on plugshare, new sae dcfs station in torrance!

 

[cwerdna]

Just noticed on plugshare, new sae dcfs station in torrance!

As I pointed out earlier, there is a running thread at http://www.mychevysparkev.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=7&t=3603&start=0.

 

[TonyWilliams]

To be clear, that is all referencing the Nissan Leaf. People interested in specific details on how the Nisssan Leaf DC charging works would be best advised by visiting:

http://www.mynissanleaf.com

Bryce

Yes, and people who wish to learn about how the Spark EV will charge will be advised to learn how the LEAF does it, as pretty much any electric car will taper the charge for battery long life.

 

[genosensor]

The 2014 Spark EV appears to charge at about 47Kw until it reaches 80% full.
Then, it tapers gradually. At 90%, its down to about 20Kw.
At 99%, it's at about 6Kw.

I'd be curious to learn how this compares to the LG pack of the 2015...

 

[Nashco]

The 2014 Spark EV appears to charge at about 47Kw until it reaches 80% full.
Then, it tapers gradually. At 90%, its down to about 20Kw.
At 99%, it's at about 6Kw.

I'd be curious to learn how this compares to the LG pack of the 2015...

I'm curious as well. In all of the cars I've tested with DC chargers, the '14 Spark EV is the most aggressive charge rate relative to the size of the pack that I've seen, especially going from 80%-100%. The cooling system and A123 batteries really impress me!

If anybody records charge rate vs state of charge on a '15, it would be neat to document and compare! I've got pretty detailed notes, but I'm hoping to get a datalog soon to use real data instead of my notes.

Bryce

 

[xylhim]

The 2014 Spark EV appears to charge at about 47Kw until it reaches 80% full.
Then, it tapers gradually. At 90%, its down to about 20Kw.
At 99%, it's at about 6Kw.

I'd be curious to learn how this compares to the LG pack of the 2015...

I'm curious as well. In all of the cars I've tested with DC chargers, the '14 Spark EV is the most aggressive charge rate relative to the size of the pack that I've seen, especially going from 80%-100%. The cooling system and A123 batteries really impress me!

If anybody records charge rate vs state of charge on a '15, it would be neat to document and compare! I've got pretty detailed notes, but I'm hoping to get a datalog soon to use real data instead of my notes.

Bryce

I think this depends on the DC charger as well. I just stopped at the first BMW fast charger a couple weeks ago, and noticed that the tapering was quite a bit more substantial than the EV pump in Irvine and the ABB fast chargers. Towards the end, the BMW charger slowed to 3.3 kW. The advantage of this though, is that I got a really full charge with the BMW charger, whereas the other units I've tried sometimes end prematurely, around 98% of full charge.