My first DC Fast Charging Experience + incessant bickering

[Chaconzies]

So I had to go to Tustin last week for a meeting and decided to try out the DC fast charging port (SAE combo) to see how the experience worked.
There's only 3 SAE combo stations in the LA/OC County area and 2 are in Irvine pretty random, but cool nonetheless. So I send out an email to the company that owns it letting them know I'll be charging, as they posted a message on plugshare saying that they had people in the area that could help walk newbies through the process. I arrived at the station at about 3:47pm and there's noone else charging there. It's got a few level 2 and then one big DC charger that has a CHADEMO on one side and SAE combo on the other. I touch the touchscreen swipe my credit card ($5 fee) and plug in to my port. Initially I get a few error messages and it doesn't work but a few tries later the system begins charging. It ramps up from 240v to 400v and from 20 amps to 50 amps pretty quick and tells me I'm currently at 60% charge (I had about 48 miles range left.) Moving over to my car I see that I'll have 80% by 4:08, but I want a full charge (I am after all paying $5. :roll: ) So I check in at Plugshare and walk over to panera and have a salad and some soup. Stomach filled and eager to see the results I walk back after 28 minutes of dining and see that my green charging light is off. The station shows the welcome screen and when I turn on my car I have a full charge. Later that day I talk with one of the technicians and let him know about the error messages and he lets me know that their payment server had an outage which caused that problem.

All in all, I thought it was a pretty sweet process. I would only use these if I was going on lengthy journey but it's cool to know that the technology is up and coming. I think in the future I may try and make a trip to san diego using the irvine station and then again at the san diego fast charging station. I'm also hoping NRG's eVgo stations will pop up and all have SAE combos as there's one in between me and Riverside and I regularly take trips there.

Oh one other thing, when you're charging at 400V the Onstar app doesn't seem to have a setting to display that and shows 0V

Update: added title to warn readers of off-topic incessant bickering between users.

 

[blownb310]

Excellent, thanks for the report!

 

[cwerdna]

Have any geek pictures (e.g. of labels and fans on the unit)?

So, is 50 amps @ 400 volts about the max on these? If so, that'd make their max output 20 kW.

Since I have a Leaf and thus can only use CHAdeMO DC FCs, I've only used http://nissanqc.com/. The ones that show you amps and volts (instead of kW) start out at a bit over 100 amps @ ~400 volts and ramp down as the battery gets fuller. As the page states, their max output is 44 kW.

 

[Chaconzies]

No sorry didn't take much time checking out the actual unit. The picture I took was right when I first plugged in so it could have ramped up or down some while I was eating. On the plugshare profile the charger says 50A, 20kw so I would say our math is right for this charger. But I know there are different ones. If I use it again then I'll try and make a video or something.

 

[nmikmik]

I had a very similar experience in Irvine Quail Hill mall , I think.

That DC was roaring while going at 50A, my first thought was how come they don't put some kind of sun reflecting cover other the unit, since they were complaining of fires. Anyway, after recognizing and communicating with my Spark, it went pretty smooth.
They say on plugshare to make sure the plug clicks, i don't think it's enough. You have to vigorously move the plug inside the port and push it firmly, i did not hear any clicks, but the charging worked. I was very excited that I didn't have to wait for hours in order to get back in San Diego. Btw, there is nice "top off" station in Oceanside Transit station and it's free to charge.

 

[xylhim]

If you check evgo's site on their freedom chargering station, they're supposed to roll out 200 new locations in California by 2016. Also, every station that has fast charging will have both SAE and CHAdeMO. All current fast charging stations will eventually be retrofitted to have a CCS plug. So check the freedom station map, hopefully within a year, most of those locations will be ccs compatible. So. Cal and nor. Cal Spark owners will be able to move about pretty easily after this

 

[Chaconzies]

I know. Very excited for eVgo I just hope they roll out the SAE stations quickly and maintain them! I'd like to be able to go to Riverside, San Diego and Santa Barbara without having to divert my route too much. Can't wait to be able to go to Riverside and back in the same day.

 

[TonyWilliams]

50 amps (slightly under 20kW) is the slowest public DC charger that I'm aware of in the USA of any standard.

Tesla Superchargers go well over 300 amps (120-135kW). The CHAdeMO charger are typically 125 amps, and the LEAF will take 120 amps (48kW).

Completely underwhelming, but fantastic compared to the 3.3kW onboard charger on the Volt and Spark EV.

I'm going to go out on a limb here and suggest that any future charging standard won't get to mass appeal at sub-20kW. Heck, the Tesla Model S can pull down near 20kW with its onboard "twin chargers" by just plugging into a 100 amp / 208-240 volt AC socket. No external charger needed at all, and no standards war.

The Renault Chameleon can also offer 22kW and 43kW from just AC three phase (three phase is not as common in the US than the rest of the world).

 

[Chaconzies]

While 50amps-400V 20kW DC fast charging is certainly not anything special, because our battery packs are so small compared to Tesla's it takes the same time to replenish 80% charge so it doesn't make much of a difference when looking at time spent charging. I don't know what the Spark EV can take in terms of DC fast charging but it seems like this is probably around the max (80% in 20 min).
When you compare almost anything in the electric car world to Tesla you're gonna be disappointed but really this isn't a comparison worth making for me. A model S is 4 times the cost and I could never afford it right now. Also, SAE combo costs $750 to add to the Spark, compared with $2000 to add Supercharging to a Model S 60kWh.
Seeing as how the only two cars with SAE combo ports that are out right now have ~100 mile range, the 80% in 20 minutes is still satisfactory and will help for longer trips especially when/if eVgo finally gets there stations up.

On a side note, what is the max amperage the Spark EV can DC fast charge at?

 

[cwerdna]

If you check evgo's site on their freedom chargering station, they're supposed to roll out 200 new locations in California by 2016. Also, every station that has fast charging will have both SAE and CHAdeMO. All current fast charging stations will eventually be retrofitted to have a CCS plug. So check the freedom station map, hopefully within a year, most of those locations will be ccs compatible. So. Cal and nor. Cal Spark owners will be able to move about pretty easily after this

Source URL, please.

As for the bolded part, are you making that claim about eVgo or in general? Source of that?

Meanwhile, it seems that eVgo has continued installing just CHAdeMO or CHAdeMO and L2 AC charging stations like at https://www.facebook.com/photo.php?fbid=884031654956590&set=gm.691585644232433&type=1 (at the Great Mall in Millpitas). The DC FC is most definitely a rebadged http://nissanqc.com/.

I did a search at http://www.nrgevgo.com/find-a-station/ for All DC fast chargers within 100 miles of 95136. I don't think any of them have J1772 CCS given that I see none in the SF Bay Area other than http://api.plugshare.com/view/location/8428 which isn't eVgo.

 

[Chaconzies]

As for the bolded part, are you making that claim about eVgo or in general? Source of that?

Meanwhile, it seems that eVgo has continued installing just CHAdeMO or CHAdeMO and L2 AC charging stations like at https://www.facebook.com/photo.php?fbid=884031654956590&set=gm.691585644232433&type=1 (at the Great Mall in Millpitas). The DC FC is most definitely a rebadged http://nissanqc.com/.

I did a search at http://www.nrgevgo.com/find-a-station/ for All DC fast chargers within 100 miles of 95136. I don't think any of them have J1772 CCS given that I see none in the SF Bay Area other than http://api.plugshare.com/view/location/8428 which isn't eVgo.

Source is here. "Each of NRG’s Freedom Stations will include
chargers that are compatible with CHAdeMo and
SAE standards."
http://www.nrgevgo.com/wp-content/uploads/2012/11/NRG-Leave-Behind-1-EV-Infrastructure-Agreement-4-27-12-FINAL.pdf

This is part of their settlement with the State of CA so they are legally obligated to meet each goal or they could be penalized further.

 

[TonyWilliams]

Source is here. "Each of NRG’s Freedom Stations will include
chargers that are compatible with CHAdeMo and
SAE standards."
http://www.nrgevgo.com/wp-content/uploads/2012/11/NRG-Leave-Behind-1-EV-Infrastructure-Agreement-4-27-12-FINAL.pdf

This is part of their settlement with the State of CA so they are legally obligated to meet each goal or they could be penalized further.

I don't know that there are any specific penalties in the agreement (I have not read the whole thing).

But, the general agreement is 200 DC quick charge stations in California, 110 in LA, 20 in San Diego, and the remaining 70 in the Central Valley and San Francisco Bay.

Each station will have two DC chargers, one CHAdeMO and one SAE CCS Combo1.

The period is fours years for the project.

 

[TonyWilliams]

SAE combo costs $750 to add to the Spark, compared with $2000 to add Supercharging to a Model S 60kWh.

This is not "apples to apples".

GM:

For $750, you get two additional DC pins and a bit of control programming from GM for your Spark EV. You can't add this after production to the car. There are approximately ten available spots to plug into in the USA. The $750 cost does not apply to any DC charging fees, which could be more over the life of the car than the $2000 Tesla charges.


TESLA:

For $2000, you don't need any hardware because every Tesla Model S is already delivered with everything. What you're paying for is the activation (that you can do any time) and FREE FOR LIFE 120-150kW Supercharger service on a worldwide network that is rapidly expanding, and already capable of Mexico to Canada and coast to coast travel.

 

[Chaconzies]

SAE combo costs $750 to add to the Spark, compared with $2000 to add Supercharging to a Model S 60kWh.

This is not "apples to apples".

GM:

For $750, you get two additional DC pins and a bit of control programming from GM for your Spark EV. You can't add this after production to the car. There are approximately ten available spots to plug into in the USA. The $750 cost does not apply to any DC charging fees, which could be more over the life of the car than the $2000 Tesla charges.


TESLA:

For $2000, you don't need any hardware because every Tesla Model S is already delivered with everything. What you're paying for is the activation (that you can do any time) and FREE FOR LIFE 120-150kW Supercharger service on a worldwide network that is rapidly expanding, and already capable of Mexico to Canada and coast to coast travel.

You forgot to add the sentences before the quote "When you compare almost anything in the electric car world to Tesla you're gonna be disappointed but really this isn't a comparison worth making for me. A model S is 4 times the cost and I could never afford it right now."

Everyone here knows Tesla's tech is better in just about every way. All I'm saying is I can't afford it right now, the $2000 for Supercharging ($2500 after delivery) is roughly 1/3rd of the cost of my entire lease. I'm just saying it's cheap to add-on the SAE combo and in the 3 years I have the lease hopefully eVgo will be developed enough to get me to San Diego, Santa Barbara or Riverside and back without having to charge overnight.

 

[cwerdna]

Source is here. "Each of NRG’s Freedom Stations will include
chargers that are compatible with CHAdeMo and
SAE standards."
http://www.nrgevgo.com/wp-content/uploads/2012/11/NRG-Leave-Behind-1-EV-Infrastructure-Agreement-4-27-12-FINAL.pdf

This is part of their settlement with the State of CA so they are legally obligated to meet each goal or they could be penalized further.

I don't know that there are any specific penalties in the agreement (I have not read the whole thing).

But, the general agreement is 200 DC quick charge stations in California, 110 in LA, 20 in San Diego, and the remaining 70 in the Central Valley and San Francisco Bay.

Each station will have two DC chargers, one CHAdeMO and one SAE CCS Combo1.

The period is fours years for the project.

Thanks the the pointers. Has year 1 technically begun yet? When is time 0?

So far, it seems none of the CCS Combo1 DC FCs in California belong to eVgo. They've been installing CHAdeMO only, it seems.

 

[TonyWilliams]

Thanks the the pointers. Has year 1 technically begun yet? When is time 0?

So far, it seems none of the CCS Combo1 DC FCs in California belong to eVgo. They've been installing CHAdeMO only, it seems.

I thought I answered this. They need to have two UL listed SAE CCS Combo1 (say that fast three times) and one SAE CCS Combo1 compatible car on the market before the clock begins.

NRG/EVgo Deal:

https://www.evgonetwork.com/wp-content/uploads/2012/11/NRG-Leave-Behind-1-EV-Infrastructure-Agreement-4-27-12-FINAL.pdf

Initially all Freedom Stations shall have one
(1) or more DC Fast Chargers compatible with the CHAdeMo
Standard and one (1) Level 2 Charger compatible with the SAE
Standard. Upon the occurrence of (A) approval by SAE for a
charger standard for DC Fast Chargers and (B) the commercial
availability from at least two (2) unaffiliated manufacturers of one
or more DC Fast Chargers that are SAE Standard compatible or
equipment capable of making the Freedom Stations’ DC Fast
Chargers compatible with both the SAE Standard and the
CHAdeMo Standard (and in each case that are approved by the
Nationally Recognized Testing Laboratories), then NRG shall have
six (6) months to complete the modification of all installed
Freedom Stations to include at least one (1) SAE Standard
compatible DC Fast Charger and one (1) CHAdeMo Standard
compatible DC Fast Charger or one (1) CHAdeMo+SAE DC
Charger. Thereafter, all newly installed Freedom Stations will
have at least one (1) DC Fast Charger that is SAE Standard
compatible.

 

[xylhim]

Source is here. "Each of NRG’s Freedom Stations will include
chargers that are compatible with CHAdeMo and
SAE standards."
http://www.nrgevgo.com/wp-content/uploads/2012/11/NRG-Leave-Behind-1-EV-Infrastructure-Agreement-4-27-12-FINAL.pdf

This is part of their settlement with the State of CA so they are legally obligated to meet each goal or they could be penalized further.

I don't know that there are any specific penalties in the agreement (I have not read the whole thing).

But, the general agreement is 200 DC quick charge stations in California, 110 in LA, 20 in San Diego, and the remaining 70 in the Central Valley and San Francisco Bay.

Each station will have two DC chargers, one CHAdeMO and one SAE CCS Combo1.

The period is fours years for the project.

Thanks the the pointers. Has year 1 technically begun yet? When is time 0?

So far, it seems none of the CCS Combo1 DC FCs in California belong to eVgo. They've been installing CHAdeMO only, it seems.

The fassion valley mall charger in SD is eVgo, or at least NRG.

 

[nozferatu]

You forgot to add the sentences before the quote "When you compare almost anything in the electric car world to Tesla you're gonna be disappointed but really this isn't a comparison worth making for me. A model S is 4 times the cost and I could never afford it right now."

Everyone here knows Tesla's tech is better in just about every way. All I'm saying is I can't afford it right now, the $2000 for Supercharging ($2500 after delivery) is roughly 1/3rd of the cost of my entire lease. I'm just saying it's cheap to add-on the SAE combo and in the 3 years I have the lease hopefully eVgo will be developed enough to get me to San Diego, Santa Barbara or Riverside and back without having to charge overnight.

Indeed I'm sure they will. It's going to grow just like any other network and will allow for more options, more competition, lower prices, and better stuff for everyone all around. Win-win.

 

[gra]

On a side note, what is the max amperage the Spark EV can DC fast charge at?

Per the owner's manual, pg. 9-37:

"The vehicle is designed to take full
advantage of a 50kW DC charger to
obtain optimal charging times. When
the vehicle is connected to a
charger larger than 50kW, the
vehicle will not charge any quicker."

The first source I found on the battery pack's voltage claimed it was 365, so 50k/365 = 137A max, but this source,

http://afvsafetytraining.com/erg/Chevrolet-Spark-2014_1.pdf

claims 360V nominal, or 139A. Call it 135A.

 

[TonyWilliams]

Thanks the the pointers. Has year 1 technically begun yet? When is time 0?

So far, it seems none of the CCS Combo1 DC FCs in California belong to eVgo. They've been installing CHAdeMO only, it seems.

The fassion valley mall charger in SD is eVgo, or at least NRG.

I did previously answer this. The NRG / eVgo CCS Combo1 station installed in San Diego is not part of the agreement since it is not UL listed, nor is it US specification.

The charger itself was flown in from Europe, alone with a Euro spec 380-400 volt transformer to run it.

It was installed for "Plug-In 2013" in San Diego, so that BMW and GM could showcase their new charging standard. Many of the stock photos floating around the web of either a Spark EV or a BMW i3 charging were from this site and event.

After all the work that was done to accommodate GM and BMW, they almost didn't show up when they learned that Nissan was also going to be present. Sad, but reality in the charge standard war.