Fast DC charging

[evfreak143]

Is Fast DC charging port available on currently released 2LT model of Spark eV?

 

[rickp]

On my 2LT I just got, no.

It will likely be a cost option in later runs. IMO, not worth getting since there are few if any of the charging stations deployed.

 

[Pegasus]

It will likely be a cost option in later runs. IMO, not worth getting since there are few if any of the charging stations deployed.

That's correct. I asked the Volt/Spark people at GM and they confirmed that the fast-charging option will be available on a later production run. No word on cost though but expect it not to be cheap because the battery cooling system would have to be significantly up-sized to deal with a fast-charge as I understand it. But that part is my speculation.

 

[pajamapuma]

On my 2LT I just got, no.

It will likely be a cost option in later runs. IMO, not worth getting since there are few if any of the charging stations deployed.

I'm surprised that you wouldn't want the option to do a DC fast charge. Yeah, there's not many stations now, but the DC feels like the feature that finally bridges the gap between electric and gas-powered cars. Even though 20 minutes is still long, it's in the same order of magnitude of time for a gas fill-up.

If it's not an easily addable option later (and I'm guessing it's not) I don't think I could justify buying the Spark yet. I'm in the midwest though, so I'm still waiting for the EV to even be available here. Hopefully the DC charge option will be available at that point!

 

[Magicinstalls]

The only reason i bought my spark ev is because My salesman assured me my spark could quick charge but there is no removable cover.
Are you saying it has to be installed? If so is there a cost? Because if there is I will be returning my spark unless the install it for free!

 

[drivefast]

same here, my sales guy said the option is on the car, although i specifically checked and the DC plug didnt seem to be mounted. since the official website and the booklet in the car mentioned the DC charger without "asterisk - on models with this option available" or something, we assumed that it may be that the charger socket will be revealed by removing some cover, during the preparation for delivery. i had my dealer put in the thing in the bill of due. next day i called chevrolet customer service, and they confirmed my concerns - the DC charger is not available on the current models, and it probably wont be a retrofit option. i think meanwhile they "fixed" their website, adding a little "late availability" indication. but my dealer now has a problem in his hands.

a DC charger is an $1000+ option on the nissan leaf. they go with the chademo plugs, which look like the J1772 that we have only bigger. for Chevrolet, the DC comes thru an "extended version" of the J1772. both plugs are shown in this article http://wheels.blogs.nytimes.com/2012/10/16/wheelies-the-empowered-edition/.

having a DC charger is not a negligible option, but is still an option. i bought the spark deciding that i will not drive it further than 35mi from home and so i won't rely on other power sources, but it may not be the case for someone else.

 

[Magicinstalls]

Well I just got back from the dealer and confirmed this information tomarrow. If the car can mot be upgraded at a later date, There gonna take the car back. It really suck cuz I love this car! But the inability to EVER quick charge it is a deal breaker...
Maybe a leaf would be a better choice

 

[drivefast]

one thing i saw on thursday last week was an email sent to the dealers from Chevrolet regarding the DC charger situation. it ended with (paraphrasing) "there are currently no plans for a retrofit option for the DC charger, but that doesn't mean it will not happen". to me, this is too little, and if the option would be so important for me, i wouldn't buy the chevy.

however, you have to keep in mind that there are currently no DC chargers available, and that applies to both the nissan and to chevrolet plug standards. the charging stations themselves are pretty expensive, and i don't see them showing up in the parking lots too soon. also, if fast charging is so important for you, you may want to re-evaluate if a pure electric is your right choice.

 

[Magicinstalls]

Now that I am able to return my Spark, I'm taking a hard look at the leaf. Here in CA there are plenty of quick chargers that will charge the leaf in 30 minutes to 80%! There's one in every Nissan dealer too.
I love the spark, but I just can't risk not ever being able to quick charge it! GM should not be lying about capabilities that may never exist! Now they have a used Spark they have to sell, and I'm sure I won't be the last pissed off customer to take their spark back!

 

[scotte]

To be fair, it's dealers lack of education that's the problem, not GM intentionally lying or misleading anyone. Hanlon's razor is appropriate here - Never attribute to malice that which is adequately explained by stupidity.

 

[Magicinstalls]

So I was able to return my spark ev, and got a 2012 leaf. The spark I feel has a much better range, and gets more kwh/miles. I am able to quick charge my leaf though. I don't regret bringing back that particular spark ev, because it will never be able to be quick charged. I will probably end up getting another Spark ev as soon as they get their quick charge issues sorted out

 

[Blackmamba]

I think Magicinstalls is trolling. A Leaf fanboy attempting to sabotage the growing fervor for the Spark EV by exploiting the current unavailability of DC charging.

OK, prove me wrong by giving us the name of the dealer you bought the Spark from and turned it back to.

 

[TonyWilliams]

The "Combined Charge System" (CCS) DC quick charge (that I refer to as "Frankenplug" for the USA version) planned for the Spark EV is not currently available on the car, nor is it currently possible to "upgrade" the car to use Frankenplug, or ANY OTHER DC CHARGER.

There are currently EXACTLY zero operational public USA specification Frankenplug stations in the world. There are currently EXACTLY zero publically held EV's that could use the non existent chargers. There is one in the ground between Phoenix and Tucson that is broken. One was announced for New York somewhere. There are 200 planned (along side CHAdeMO chargers) for California in four years under a deal with NRG/EVgo, however that deal requires two manufacturers of Frankenplugs (requirement met) and at least one available vehicle (not met yet).

The "other" car to get the Frankeplug in the USA is the BMW i3. It was announced yesterday to not be available in the USA/Canada until "second quarter 2014", which means by July 1, 2014. About a year away. This car will offer a BMW 650cc gasoline motorcycle engine as a "range extender" as an option in addition to the Frankenplug.

The Chevy Spark EV is left holding the bag as likely the only Frankenplug car for the next year, sold in extremely low volume in two states, currently without any DC charging on the car, nor are there public stations (and no demand to push for public stations).

There will likely be several California Air Resources Board (CARB) Zero Emission Vehicle (ZEV) compliance cars offered in the coming two years with the Frankenplug, selling a few hundred to a thousand cars total only in California through 2015-2017 model years; for example, the Volkswagon eGolf and Mercedes B Class EV.

States adopting CARB include Arizona (2012 model year), Connecticut, Maine, Maryland, Massachusetts, New Jersey, New Mexico (2011 model year), New York, Oregon, Pennsylvania, Rhode Island, Vermont, and Washington, as well as the District of Columbia. Such states are frequently referred to as "CARB states" in automotive discussions because the regulations are defined by the California Air Resources Board.

The Chevrolet Spark EV is a California ZEV compliance car, and is also being sold in the CARB-ZEV state of Oregon. GM must sell this car for model years 2012-2014 to comply with 0.79% total sales of ZEV's in California. The six "Very Large Manufacturers" who must comply for 2012-2014 are:

1. GM - Spark EV (the only current Frankenplug compliance car)

2. Ford - Focus EV (no DC charger of any kind)

3. Fiat/Chrysler - Fiat 500e (no DC charger of any kind)

4. Toyota - Rav4 EV (2600 to be built, no DC charger of any kind)

5. Nissan - LEAF (purpose built, not a conversion, 70,000 sold worldwide, CHAdeMO worldwide)

6. Honda - Fit EV (1100 to be built, no DC charger of any kind in USA, CHAdeMO in Japan)

The Frankenplug sold here is unique to the USA. The CCS version in Europe is based on the Mennekes plug that uses three phase AC power. Obviously, the Europe CCS/Mennekes and SAE (USA) CCS "Frankeplug" are not interchangable. Tesla will use a modified Mennekes plug in Europe on their Model S cars sold there.


The Actual Working, Currently Installed DC Charging Standards:

Tesla is installing a "Supercharger" DC quick charge network throughout the USA and Canada with 500 - 1000 charging stalls at 100-200 sites. This is a $50 million project. The specifications call for 400 volts at up to 300 amps, for 120kW DC power. These are proprietary to Telsa vehicles and manufacturers who license their technology.

Currently, there are no manufacturers except Tesla, however Daimler (Mercedes Benz) is rumored to be considering it. That means that you can charge at any of the sites "for free, forever". The $1500-$2000 license to use the stations will be rolled into the cost of the car.

Tesla is delivering 400-500 cars per week worldwide. In addition, Tesla has announced that they will offer a CHAdeMO adapter to be used with their cars. There has been no notice of a Frankenplug adapter, however, should Frankenplug stations actually get built, the Supercharger network is "100% compatible".


The Worldwide Common DC Charging Standard, CHAdeMO:

This DC charge standard has approximately 3000 stations around the world, with about 200 in the USA, 900 in Europe, and the rest in Japan. It is the same standard everywhere, without regional changes. The same plug works in Tokyo and Estonia.

It is specified to be 100kW (500 volts x 200 amps), however the current limit is 62.5kW (125 amps). A Nissan LEAF can use 48kW (and the Chevy Spark will be similar at around 45kW with Frankenplug, no matter what the breathless salesman or press releases might say).

In addition to the Nissan LEAF with 70,000 cars worldwide, the Mitsubishi iMiev and clones Peugeot ion and Citroën C-Zero have sold 30,000 worldwide and also use CHAdeMO. The upcoming Kia Soul EV with use CHAdeMO.

Nissan is installing up to 100 CHAdeMO stations in the USA, in addition to those from Ecotality/Blink, AeroVironment, and many others. The "West Coast Electric Highway" is exclusively CHAdeMO.


Epilogue:

There is not likely to be a low cost CHAdeMO to Frankenplug adaptor that you can use in your Spark EV. There definitely won't be European CCS/Menekkes or a Tesla adaptor.

I hope this helps in your buying decisions. It pains me to think how many folks might buy a Spark or other Frankenplug vehicle and have NO IDEA what they really bought.

My advice is to not count on many Frankenplug stations for a LONG time. My opinion is that neither GM, nor BMW will spend the money that Nissan and Tesla are spending. Public money has thus far all been spent on CHAdeMO and J1772 AC charging. There's not any momentum for yet another new standard.

I'm confident that the Spark EV will be a fine car for driving around town, but I can tell you after 35,000 miles with two LEAF's, charging at 3.3kW (like Spark and Volt/Ampera have) on J1772 in public is for the birds!!!

Welcome to gasoline free driving!!!

 

[Blackmamba]

From a Green Car Congress story:

.....(Spark EV) will be the first vehicle on the market to use the recently approved SAE combo charger for DC Fast Charging (J1772). (Available as a ~$900 option later this year.) Also, its liquid cooled battery pack, developed with tailored A123 Systems Li-ion iron phosphate cells and GM controls, can handle multiple DC fast charges daily without impact on battery life. A fast charge can bring a pack depleted to the lower range of its state of charge window up to 80% capacity in approximately 20 minutes, with lower charge levels in correspondingly smaller amounts of time.

GM is eyeing the fast charge option as one way to address a potential roadblock to urban EV adoption: the lack of a home charging option for many urban dwellers—i.e., no garage or car port in apartments, etc. The company really doesn’t expect Spark EV drives to stutter across the country in 80-odd mile increments punctuated by 20-minute recharges, suggested Britta Gross, Director of Advanced Vehicle Commercialization Policy, during a briefing at the Spark EV drive in Portland, Oregon.

Currently, DOE data suggests that 90% of charging is done at home. However, the ability for a public fast recharge in cities could enable those urban dwellers without a viable home charging option to buy the Spark EV, she said.

The fact is, charging infrastructure is still in its infancy stage and to imply DC charging is dead ended at this point in time is one person's opinion, but still - an opinion.

It appears the goal with DC charging is not to duplicate or supplant the nascent interstate highway charging network, but instead to focus upon building urban based charging networks.

And by the way - Leafs batteries cannot handle multiple daily fast charges.

 

[TonyWilliams]

The fact is, charging infrastructure is still in its infancy stage and to imply DC charging is dead ended at this point in time is one person's opinion, but still - an opinion.

It appears the goal with DC charging is not to duplicate or supplant the nascent interstate highway charging network, but instead to focus upon building urban based charging networks.

And by the way - Leafs batteries cannot handle multiple daily fast charges.

Oh, I would say that I know about LEAF (it's all capital) battery issues!!! Here's my Sept 15, 2012 Phoenix Range Test of the LEAF

I am not remotely suggesting DC charging is dead. Frankenplug is still-born, however. DC charging will continue to flourish around the world, as will future fast onboard AC chargers and inductive charging.

Frankenplug was devised as a way to try and slow down CHAdeMO and Nissan. They're only 5 years late to the game, so it comes as no surprise to me that they will fail with Frankenplug.

I want to be perfectly clear, since this poster missed my point by such a large margin. Frankenplug, the GM proposed new DC charging standard that will be used in the USA only, has ZERO chargers and ZERO cars that can use those non-existent chargers. That is a FACT.

My opinion is that DC charging will FLOURISH around the world, and the USA. It just won't be with Frankenplug.

 

[scotte]

First, I don't think Magicinstalls was trolling. He/she just didn't get fully educated beforehand and trusted the word of the dealer - who also wasn't properly educated (and to be frank, most dealers will say anything if it sells cars). All it takes is a few minutes looking in the manual to see that the car doesn't have the DC charging port - it's not hard. At all.

Second, on the topic of DC charging - I don't care about not having the DC charging port. And I won't care until there is critical mass in a DC charging network with a common standard (like there is with SAE J1772), which I suspect will be a few years down the road - well after my lease is up. I think a lot of people are too hung up on this, but if it's important to you then you should probably not be an early adopter and wait until the market works itself out.

Even Tesla isn't completely banking on a fast charging network, as they announced that they will be installing battery swap stations where you swap your batteries for a freshly charged set in about 90 seconds. This is a silly and wrong way to go around the problem, and has some nasty little details - for example you have to return the batteries for your original set or you have to pay extra, meaning it only works on round-trips along the same route. Madness...

That's my opinion anyway!

 

[Blackmamba]

First, I don't think Magicinstalls was trolling. He/she just didn't get fully educated beforehand and trusted the word of the dealer - who also wasn't properly educated (and to be frank, most dealers will say anything if it sells cars). All it takes is a few minutes looking in the manual to see that the car doesn't have the DC charging port - it's not hard. At all.

You're a kind person and your feelings show. But I'll stand by my hunch, I've followed for five + years sites like this during the development and launch of the Volt and Leaf, the Volt site was haunted by a particular troll and I recognise his tones and MOs. This is the GM-Volt troll, and if the moderator of this site checks where the posts come from I'll bet you a $15 milkshake the posts are not from California or Oregon, or even the USA.

But hey - I've challenged him to give the name of the dealer and if it checks out, I will give a very sincere and sorrowful public apology. That won't happen though. We cannot let him get away with it for his dishonesty will taint whatever integrity Chevrolet dealers have with the public. And that's not cool.

Concerning the DC charging, it's going to take time to let the chips fall where they may. The SAE standard which GM and BMW have embraced combines different charge levels which allow more compact plug areas on the car than CHAdeMO equipped cars. As I said, it's way too early to let this issue get in the way of buying an EV. I'm really stoked about the Spark EV and how well its battery lives up to what Chevy says it will do. I hope it sets sales records - the more people driving EVs the more automakers will understand their needs and desires.

 

[TonyWilliams]

Even Tesla isn't completely banking on a fast charging network, as they announced that they will be installing battery swap stations where you swap your batteries for a freshly charged set in about 90 seconds.

Wrong... Tesla has no intention of supplanting battery swapping with the current DC charging. The demonstration was a 94 second battery swap (two actually) and the announcement was that they would try a few stations in California on heavily traveled routes like LA to SF that would likely be co-located with Supercharger stations.

Supercharging will remain "free forever" and the battery swapping will cost the equivalent of "15 gallons of gasoline". Therefore, the choice will become "fast or free". Which do you think most drivers will opt for?

Tesla has also announced 5 to 10 minutes charging, but that's going to be quite a few years out. As a side note, the CARB is considering to not allow battery swapping to count as "fast refueling capable" in its calculations of credits. Watch how quickly NOBODY adopts battery swapping if that happens!!!

Remember, every other car company needs to earn those credits to sell millions of oil burning cars in California... but Tesla only needs those credits to SELL to gain revenue (since they don't and won't market an oil burning car). If battery swapping ultimately has no value, Tesla likely won't do it. Or they won't do it on any scale larger than a demonstration.

We met with a local Tesla employee last night who confirmed that no timelines, plans, funds, goals, etc have been sent out internally to build battery swapping stations.

 

[TonyWilliams]

Concerning the DC charging, it's going to take time to let the chips fall where they may. The SAE standard which GM and BMW have embraced combines different charge levels which allow more compact plug areas on the car than CHAdeMO equipped cars.

I think you've read too many press releases confused as science. Plus, pin size isn't the almightly determiner of "charge levels". I'll once again bring your attention to a little car company in Fremont, California that is pumping out 400-500 electric vehicles per week with tiny pins that pass 300 amps at 400 volts.

Both Frankenplug and CHAdeMO are specified to ultimately be the SAME power... 500 volts at 200 amps, or 100kW. Your GM/BMW embrace was exactly the same power, which makes this new standard all the more perplexing if you ignore the obvious.... muddying the water for standards to try and slow Nissan and CHAdeMO installations.

As I said, it's way too early to let this issue get in the way of buying an EV. I'm really stoked about the Spark EV and how well its battery lives up to what Chevy says it will do. I hope it sets sales records - the more people driving EVs the more automakers will understand their needs and desires.

Let's hope all the EV manufacturers see the light, and buyers line up to buy these. We hopefully all share this view who would likely be buying a LEAF, Spark EV, or a Tesla product. However, for folks who want to quickly charge their batteries, this issue SHOULD get in the way of a purchase, as the OP who turned in his newly purchased Spark EV can attest.

PLEASE, PLEASE, PLEASE don't buy a Frankenplug car is you need to actually use a non-existent charger. There are other choices, particularly if you are in Chicago, Tennessee, Washington and Oregon, and major metro areas of California and Texas where the CHAdeMO quick chargers are already deployed.

 

[TonyWilliams]

Here's where current DC quick chargers actually are as of July 2013. They are not Frankenplugs: